In Gorbachev's view, and those of other more concerted disarmament advocates, it's hard to limit nuclear proliferation when the vast American and Russian arsenals still exist.
Gorbachev: "If five or 10 countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons, then why can't 20 or 30? Today, a few dozen countries have the technical prerequisites to build nuclear weapons. The alternative is clear: Either we move towards a nuclear-free world or we have to accept that nuclear weapons will continue to spread, step by step, across the globe. And can we really imagine a world without nuclear weapons if a single country amasses so many conventional weapons that its military budget nearly tops that of all other countries combined? This country would enjoy total military supremacy if nuclear weapons were abolished.
Spiegel: "You're talking about the US?" Gorbachev: "You said it. It is an insurmountable obstacle on the road to a nuclear-free world. That's why we have to put demilitarisation back on the agenda of international politics. This includes a reduction of military budgets, a moratorium on the development of new types of weapons and a prohibition on militarising space. Otherwise, talks toward a nuclear-free world will be little more than empty words. The world would then become less safe, more unstable and unpredictable. Everyone will lose, including those now seeking to dominate the world."
That last point seems hopelessly idealistic, particularly at a time when tensions between Moscow and Washington are at such acute levels over Russia's meddling in Ukraine. This week, Russian officials even suggested that an international military tribunal be formed to discuss American war crimes 70 years ago.
Gorbachev admitted his dismay at the present state of affairs. "Talks between both powers over important global problems have practically been put on ice," he said. "That includes the question of nuclear disarmament. Trust, the very capital we worked so hard to build, has been destroyed."
Instead, partially because of American intransigence, Gorbachev believes "we are witnessing the beginning of a new arms race".
But he pointed to his own political experience for signs of hope.
"In the mid-1980s, there was no shortage of people who thought the train to atomic hell was unstoppable. But then we achieved a lot in very short space of time ... We can be proud of that," Gorbachev said.