Chris Cairns talks to media following his not guilty verdict.
The perverting the course of justice charges against Chris Cairns and Andrew Fitch-Holland stemmed from a Skype conversation between the latter and Lou Vincent in March 2011.
Both Cairns and Andrew Fitch-Holland were found not guilty of the charges at Southwark Crown Court.
Vincent recorded the call, in which Fitch-Holland tried to persuade him to give a statement supporting Cairns for his upcoming libel trial against Lalit Modi, who accused him of match-fixing.
Vincent had agreed to meet Cairns' solicitor Rhory Robertson but changed his mind. Cairns won the libel case in March 2012.
Cairns and Fitch-Holland were jointly charged with perverting the course of justice. The Crown alleged Fitch-Holland asked for a false statement from Vincent knowing Cairns - and Vincent - were involved in match-fixing.
Both were cleared by the jury at Southwark Crown Court who were played a recording of the call.
We're not allowed to use the recording for legal reasons. But here's a transcript of the 22-minute, 20-second conversation.
Andrew Fitch-Holland: You know you spoke to Rhory.
Lou Vincent: Yeah I did.
AFH: As I said to you I completely understand why, you know, why you would just, you know, just not want your name to come above the headlights at all full stop ummm. Just the, you know the problem we've got is, as I said, Himanshu Mody and Lalit Modi obviously know each other.
LV: Um
AFH: And there's a guy called er Subash Chandra who actually owns ICL effectively.
LV: Zee TV, yeah.
AFH: and, yeah now my, now through a contact of mine in India we're sort of talking to him because he doesn't appreciate the kind of s*** that Modi and Hally (Andrew Hall), by accident effectively, are trying to dish out and that won't do him any good. So the way I see this whole thing coming down is that the Indians will carve it up between them and the whole thing will go away. Um cause as Cairnsy said he doesn't actually want any money, he just wants an apology. And all Modi's got to do is say, you know, I, I didn't mean exactly what I said. You know Chris doesn't deny that there were rumours, what he denies is the fact that there was a conclusive finding against him which, which is where, which is where Modi went wrong by, by saying you know: as a matter of fact. So if we can just get, and he did at one point offer to settle, um so, you know, I think basically it's going to come down to an argument between, between the Indians about who's paying the lawyers' bills.
LV: Cairnsy was on the phone last week just saying he, he borrowed some money to pay for the legal fees.
AFH: Yeah he's borrowed some money from um I think an English woman, I know um not entirely sure I think that's who it's, I think that's who it has come from cause going forward um the lawyers are acting for him on a no win, no fee.
Andrew Fitch-Holland was found not guilty. Photo / Getty Images
AFH: Which is great because it obviously means they think he is going to win cos they wouldn't do that if they didn't think that we were good to go so that, that quite surprised me actually particularly because the QC he's got is a guy called Andrew Caldecott who is the best libel QC in the country ah and if Caldecott he, you know that, he charges sort of 800 quid an hour, now if he is prepared to do it on a no win, no fee he must have a very high degree of confidence.
LV: Yep.
AFH: That, you know, that we'll be okay otherwise why would he waste his time and all that money so that I guess gives me some degree of comfort.
LV: And that's, I mean that's where, that's where I question, that's where I question my involvement if it's as clear cut as that before I even am involved then.
AFH: Well because I, well one of the things is that when we met with Caldecott um and I was involved in that meeting, you know, we, he said, he said what we need is, is literally, I mean we are talking brief, we're talking like a paragraph.
AFH: From, from people who played alongside you who, all they have got to say is, they haven't got to comment at all on the specific allegations all they have got to say is I was in that game, nothing seemed that weird to me you know, full stop, and leave it at that. He said because obviously you know what they're saying is that it was screamingly obvious that some, that it, that is was wrong um and so Caldecott was expecting.
LV: How many games how many, how many games?
AFH: that, that you Harry and Tower would say that.
LV: How many, wait, how many games are they questioning?
AFH: I think they are questioning two, I think there is the, well you've got a copy of Hally's statement haven't you?
AFH: Yeah so I mean it's, like, it's like, I think it's the Heroes game and one other.
LV: Oh okay
AFH: Is it against Delhi maybe but um I, I think, I they're only, they're only really referring to two games and so much of what they are saying, just doesn't make sense, for example you've got a point where they say that Cairnsy go, walks out to bat and asks the other batsman how many runs he is on, when there is a f****** great big scoreboard up there.
Lou Vincent and his partner outside Southwark Crown Court during the trial. Photo / Getty Images
LV: Yeah yeah
AFH: So you know, so why, why would you walk out and ask the guy at the other end how many runs he is on.
AFH: When there is a f****** great scoreboard in a stadium that tells you what the score is I just you know, so there's, there's a lot of, you know, I mean between you and I, you know, we all know that some of what's being said is clearly true but, but an awful lot of it just makes no f****** sense at all and is just, just bulls*** that the Indians have said effectively to try and get themselves out of a situation and make everyone else look bad um you know and on the face of it, they were involved from the very very beginning with some bookie who no one's heard of um called Rob, you know, Robin someone or other so I don't know what the hell that is all about. And the thing of course that really sucks is that Modi is running a case that says: these young Indians were all confessed cheats, oh and by the way I gave them all a job in the IPL.
LV: Yeah exactly yeah.
AFH: It's not gonna look good, it's going to, you know, and at the end of the day, and also, you know, under English law he's got to prove on the balance of probabilities that everything he said is true and that ain't going to happen. You know there's no way a jury, an English jury is gonna wanna believe, with all due respect, a bunch of Indians who aren't gonna show up. There's no way those guys are gonna come over here and if they do all you've got to do is ask them one question which is: 'Ok you've given this statement?', 'yeah', 'is it right that Mr Modi, that you now play in the IPL and receive lots of money from the IPL?' 'Yes' and what do you think the man on the street, which is what the jury is going to be: ordinary people, will just think yeah that smells.
LV: Yeah course it does.
AFH: But you know, and it is gonna come down. But I just my concern at the, you know, as I said Rhory's concern and my concern is that if we can just literally get one paragraph statements that just said I played in that game, seemed okay to me, end of. It doesn't mean you'll ever be called as a witness, I don't think ever, all it does is just makes it plain that, that, that you know, things aren't as straightforward than they look, you know. And purely in terms of numbers I don't like, I don't like the way it looks with , you know, sort of 500 people lining up on one side and one guy on the other, well me, Mel, you know, a few others, but it just, I don't know, it just kinda sucks really.
LV: Oh I completely agree you know absolutely, you know and no question about it I think for a lot of
AFH: But you know at the end of the day, at the end of the day just because you give a statement no one can force you to come to court, no one can force you to do anything, you know, and certainly no one's, no one's going to put you in a position um where, where your integrity is questioned or where your name is tied to erm a sinking ship. All it is, is just at this stage, just to try and put some f****** context on, on those games and just say well here are some other people who played in those games and it looked okay to them.
LV: Um
AFH: You know the, the, you know the point, the point is you weren't privy to any of these conversations, you weren't at any of these meetings so there's no way you are involved in any of that and no one's saying you were involved in any of that, what they are saying is that you were one of the 11 people on the field in those games and from where you were standing everything seemed okay, you know, full stop.
LV: That's, but, obviously it's not, you know, because I, it wasn't, you know.
AFH: Well yeah well.
LV: So it's a big ask from me to sort of like, like you say in a legal document to say something that isn't true.
AFH: Yeah I know well, well that's right well that, that you know that, again is absolutely.
LV: When I, when I haven't seen any um any, anything for what's happened.
AFH: Benefit yeah, yep exactly.
LV: You know what I mean and now I'm not only am I indefinitely waiting for, for a return on, on, on that involvement, I'm not being legally being asked to sort of be involved and from my position.
AFH: Yeah well I can understand that, I can completely understand that I mean, you know, I've, I haven't received dollar one from Christopher since this whole thing started and you know within, within days of the s*** hitting the fan, I, my cellphone bill must have racked up 400 quid in, you know just calling journalists and cricinfo.
LV: F***
AFH: Trying to sort all that crap out when it all first took place. Um but what I also know is that he has been completely you know on his, on his f****** knees, you know the whole thing with Carin and Mel.
LV: Yeah yeah.
AFH: You know, I mean don't ever ever tell him I told you this but when, when that whole thing kicked up he and I met in central London, I didn't know about Mel, he didn't tell me until it was all too late cos he was, I guess, well, embarrassed or whatever and, you know, cause obviously I knew Carin and the kids, I guess he didn't want to put me in that situation, and then when he told me, I mean you know he's a big guy, he was in tears.
AFH: Saying that I don't know what the f*** to do, you know, just his whole life everything went wrong at, at the same time and the, and the guy he's a very, you know, he must have a degree of pride I'm sure and I think everything just hit him at once and he didn't know what do to and who to trust and Christopher is a guy who's always, I think, had a relatively short attention span and has always got one brilliant scheme after another, none of which every quite come off um
LV: That's him though, that's him to a tee he's a, he's a go-getter.
AFH: Yes you know, yeah and I've known, I've known him long enough and I've sat and watched it but I've always stuck with him and always helped him because fundamentally he's actually one of the good guys.
LV: Of course yeah.
AFH: And I love his kids, you know, my kids used to babysit his kids and I want, I want those boys to be okay and so, you know, I guess I kinda justify it by saying: "Well if I take care of him, eventually that will benefit those boys' um which I guess must be right. And also, you know, for me professionally I want to do this XI thing [an X Factor like show for cricketers] and having, when I was in New York last week I met with the New York end of it and, you know, through sheer luck I think he has managed to stumble into a situation where the, the other group of people around him involved in the XI project actually do know what they are doing and do have the connections and the technical know-how to make the f****** thing happen.
LV: This is that er, this is that TV thing is it, at the end of the...
AFH: Yeah and I think, you know, I mean I, I am within a, a degree of certainty as you can be utterly convinced that, that's going to happen um and that then we're all f***ing away to the races, you know, I want a job out of it, um I am sure you'd like a job out of it and I know Cairnsy needs some f****** money out of it cos he hasn't earned any for two years, you know.
LV: What's the, where's he, where's he living in Dubai now cos last time I saw he was in an apartment.
AFH: Well the last, when I was out there last time he was um borrowing a bedroom from a, from a friend so.
AFH: Well they were but then she's gone back to Australia to have the baby so they gave up their place to save on, save on money and he, cause obviously she's stopped work, so you know cause they only, they're relying upon on her income obviously so he was just.
LV: F*** yeah what, what happened to the guy, what happened to this diamond dealer then, what happened to the guy that was behind it, behind the business.
AFH: Well there is still a job offer from him, I think that Cairnsy feels burned by, you know, again we haven't really talked about it, but I think he feels quite burned by him and doesn't want to sell his soul completely to the devil um and he sees XI as being an opportunity to make some money for himself rather than being someone else's bitch to be perfectly honest um.
LV: Yeah cause it went pear, cause it went, cause it went pear, sorry.
AFH: And cause we, we had, we really had a good stroke of luck last week with um this guy Charles Garland who's one of, one of the English guys involved in the XI project um who's got a big media background, he's just been appointed COO of Simon Cowell's company.
AFH: So and he's, you know he's a one tenth shareholder in XI and a director, ah so I met with his brother in New York and, well you know, that obviously, you know, fits rather nicely in terms of our strategy, it gives us an incredible connection within the industry um which, you know and, and given that we weren't basing the project upon that anyway cos we were mainly looking at India, Pakistan, Middle East angle to begin with um, but the fact that we've now got that connection in the developed world to me just gave me so much more comfort, it really did and effectively, you know, I've, I've advised my barristers chambers in London that in the event the project happens, I am taking a, a year leave of absence just to work on XI.
LV: For sure.
AFH: Cause that's what I want to do so.
LV: F*** yeah, yeah so what, there must be some sort of paperwork flying around, there must be some sort of like, at what sort of, what stage is it at now with the TV show like, you know.
AFH: Okay well where we, where we've got to is we've, we've signed an agreement with Sportsbrand who are an Australian based sports marketing company who basically attract er funding, through er commercial sponsorship to sports media projects um for example, I don't know before, I don't know when you, did you see that documentary on the BBC about the Afghan national cricket team?
AFH: Oh right well it's really good, it's on the B, it's brilliant, it's called Ashes to Ashes I think, it was really good.
LV: I might write that down.
AFH: It's actually quite funny cause the guy, they guy they sort of focused on and followed as was, this young Afghan guy who basically got screwed over cause once the team got good and started to win, they'd bring in a bunch of Pakistani ringers.
LV: Yep.
AFH: And, and f***** him off out of it so but Sportsbrand made that programme um they staged the tour, tennis tour event ah when that's out, in Dubai, ah they put on the Aussie V8 racing series that's been at the Yas stadium in Bahrain so, you know, so they are used to doing major sporting events, and, and working with the sponsors and we've signed a deal with them whereby effectively they, they will source, they will place the programme with broadcasters and, and/or funders and then, you know, we pay them 20 per cent.
LV: What, what's that, what are they called again, Sportsbrand?
AFH: We formally signed the agreement after f****** months of negotiation, we got that signed last week umm they've submitted but they, they were working for us anyway just on spec. They've now submitted a final budget to NBC in the Middle East ah and the last email we had from them was, yeah, I mean they, they you know I mean, the kind of detail we are getting coming back from NBC is well, okay this is the time period in which we would be looking to broadcast it, this is the night we would broadcast it, this is how many times we would repeat it, how do you see, how are we going share SMS revenues. So we are down to that kind of detail so that's why, you know, we are way, way beyond just pitching an idea, we're we're arguing about individual revenue streams and how those are attributed so.
LV: Ah it's all exciting for you, all it's, it's all really exciting for you mate, like you are saying it must be, it must be good fun.
AFH: It is, it's just frustrating cos I know that once we get episode 1 on air then we can sell it around the globe and cookie cutter it to other sports, in other countries, it's just getting episode 1 made, you know and it, and also from a legal point of view until you actually make the frigging thing, your copyright protection is a bit all over the place, other people can copy your idea.
LV: I see what you mean, I see what you mean, that's not.
AFH: So you need, you need to actually get the thing highly specifically stylized, it's like the classic example is Who Wants to be a Millionaire.
LV: Yeah.
AFH: You can't copyright an idea but in that show, anywhere it is shown in the world, the music's always the same the, the way the spot lights work is always the same, the height of the chairs is the same, the position of the computer monitors, the fact that the audience lighting is all blue, all that s***. It's all of that taken as a whole is, is what is covered by their copyright, you can't copyright the idea of having a quiz show in the same way we can't copyright the idea of having a reality TV show about cricket or football, but once we actually design the f***** then we can copyright it.
AFH: It's just been a s***load of work and the good, you know Christopher knows f*** all about broadcasting and about sponsorship, but what he does have is a huge amount of time on his hands and he has erm a sort of belligerence, he doesn't give up.
LV: No
AFH: You know, so he keeps calling, he keeps sending the emails and he's good cos he, cause he chases in that, in our little group, you know cause one, you've got me, I do the law, another guy's an accountant, we've got two guys know all about TV production yadda yadda yadda. What Christopher does do is he keeps driving us all to make sure that stuff happens, um so he's good you know at that ah and
LV: Oh yeah that's, that's always, that's always been his, that's always been why he's, he's, why people are drawn to him because he's got that, that charisma and that sort of energy in the room, you know he's, he has been an amazing guy and that's why part of it, it's quite hard this is, this is such an awkward position, awkward position.
AFH: He's also, he's also polite as well which is good, I mean he comes across well, he doesn't, he's although, although you know, you must have a degree of arrogance to be as good at what he did as he was. He is, he, he comes across, not humbly, but he has as a sort of, yeah a sort of quiet, quieter charisma now, I guess, than he did when he was younger.
LV: Um
AFH: So you know he is good in a meeting, I have to say, I was quite, quite impressed I wish he'd shave more often before meetings, but you know.
LV: Ha ha yeah
AFH: You can't control everything and I, I've never, I've still never seen him in a, have I ever seen him in a tie? I don't think I have, no.
AFH: I've seen a photo, I've seen a photograph of him with the BlackCaps in a, in a jacket and tie meeting the Queen and shaking hands with the Queen.
LV: (laughing)
AFH: But no I think that's the only time I have ever seen a picture of him in a tie, not even at his wedding, so there you go.
LV: Nah, he's pretty cool, he's a pretty cool cat, so he's um. No, like I said, back to, back to our situation mate yeah, you know, it's, it is a real, cause I've got one chance now of sort of really with, my career you know and.
AFH: Yeah absolutely and you've got to, you know, dude you've got to put yourself first and I, you know.
LV: And it's a horrible situation because I also want to be there for a mate as well and Cairnsy has been a mate, you know, although, you know, like I said, I, I'm not proud of what has happened at all I think what, what has happened has been, it's something that I've, I don't think I'm, it's hard, hard for me to live with what's gone on.
AFH: I think, I think the reality is, is that, you know, I think Harry will give a brief statement I think Daryl will give a, a brief statement it's just a question of who does it first. I think unfortunately the three, you know, you're all looking at each other going 'Well I am not going to do it' but, you know, at the end of the day someone is going to have to step up they really are cos I just, I think other, otherwise it just is going to just be, I don't know, it's just, it's just not going to look good.
LV: Yes
AFH: And as I said I don't think this is ever going to go to court and if it does, then I guess, you know we, we put your statement in the shredder and you don't appear as a witness, end of, but um it's just, it's like a game of chicken you know and I just don't want to blink before that f***** does cause I know they'll settle.
LV: Yeah Yeah
AFH: And, you know, Christopher he's not an idiot, he's not, he's not going to stand, he's not going to go to court and run the risk of standing up on the witness stand and being made to look like fool and it all being all over the papers so, you know, he won't run that risk, he'll back down before then.
LV: So what's the process then, so you got X amount of time or he's got X amount of like statements or something that he's allowed to.
AFH: Yeah, we've got, well he, at the moment we have until Friday but the other side are asking for an extension so I think we're going to have a little bit more time.
LV: Oh that's good.
AFH: So well as I said, if we can meet, meet up for a beer when you get back that's be good.
LV: Yeah, yeah well the first week of April will be just settling in and stuff but um, no, but we'll just keep, keep each other in touch and stuff and
AFH: Yeah
LV: Yeah, no well yeah, that's right, that's right.
AFH: No he just flew straight in, straight out, I mean you know, he was working for IBN CNN, you know, which is, you know, one of the biggest broadcasters in India so there's clearly, clearly no issue there.
LV: Yeah.
AFH: No God Modi's the guy who can't go to India, they've revoked his f****** passport.
AFH: There is an arrest warrant out for him in, in India, and they've revoked.
LV: Yeah cause I heard, I heard stories about him during the IPL, like you know literally.
AFH: Yeah well, he was, he was taking, I mean, you know, it's widely acknowledged that he was putting massive, massive, massive bets on and of course, he also took an illegal skim off all the franchises that he sold the, you know, the second set of franchises.
AFH: So and, and where, he, where he got to be a complete idiot was of course, he then started to not cut the other Indian politicians in and so they've thought, you know, I'm sure, well that's my supposition of the reality.
LV: Yeah that's plain, that's plain English for me as well, keep it simple hey.
AFH: Yeah, yeah so you know I, I reckon, you know, that's what happened and then he starts giving press conferences slagging off Indian government ministers and low and behold the next thing you know, they've issued an arrest warrant for him. Now they've cancelled his passport so he's currently trapped in London, can't go anywhere.
LV: With all his millions of dollars no doubt.
AFH: Yeah, so my heart bleeds for him, you know, but we'll see.
AFH: But um we'll see anyway, I gotta go because the battery is about to die on my laptop, I need to go plug it in.
LV: All right, no worries mate, make sure, you got.
AFH: That's a nice hotel there, isn't it, the Emirates Palace.
LV: Yeah it's pretty flash mate too, too flash for me mate, I don't.
AFH: Yeah it just, it just none of it seems real it just seems like it, there's no atmosphere, there's no soul to the place, it's just, it's like Dubai is like Vegas but without the fun.
AFH: It's just, it's just a weird, weird setup it really is and I just can't get my head around It just, you know, one giant shopping mall with a few trees here and there, but you know.
LV: Yeah
AFH: Each to his own, each to his own, anyway look go well.
LV: Wicked mate.
AFH: And erm, and we'll keep in touch.
LV: Yeah I'll, yeah I'll see you soon mate, speak to you soon.
