Woodward: You had to make a big selection call, Elton Flatley for the very young Matt Giteau at 12. Did you agonise about that?
Jones: Not really. I knew how great a player Gits would become but rule No 1 in a World Cup is if you are blessed with a world-class kicker, he's the first name on the team sheet. It was Gits' bad luck he played inside centre. Flats could play 10 as well but we already had Steve Larkham there.
Woodward: Totally agree, and goal-kicking could be a big advantage for England this weekend. In all these years I've never asked you: what was your take on referee Andre Watson's about-turn on our scrummaging in the second half? I still wake up in a cold sweat about it now. We were dominating the scrums in the first half and suddenly started getting pinged. Any idea what was going on?
Jones: No idea, mate. Billy Young was not the strongest scrummager but occasionally could get a really strong body position and make it tough for the opposition. My best guess, though, is home advantage. We saw it again in the 2011 final. Referees aren't biased, but they want to be liked. They are human and when it's a 50-50 call they will go with the home team.
Woodward: Another advantage to England - things are starting to look good for England! Was there any way you could have stopped Jonny's dropped goal?
Jones: I had enough confidence to think we would take you to the wire and had watched Jonny kicked three dropped goals in the semi-final against France. So when it was 17-17 we knew what was coming. We worked hard on defensive ploys but there is only so much you can do. What did us was that decision from Matt Dawson to take it on another 10 metres when you ran your zig-zag move. That made a challenging 40m-plus strike into a more straightforward kick of 30m. It was my only regret of the World Cup.
Woodward: What did you do after the World Cup? I lost track of you for a while.
Jones: Straight after? We went down Bill Young's pub in Concordia the next day - just the team and families - and enjoyed the best kick-back I can remember in my career. I kept coaching Australia in 2004 but we had a bad run in 2005 and I lost my job. It was my fault mainly. I tried too much too soon. After 2003 we assumed England would get better and better - build a dynasty - so I tried to implement some radical stuff with Rugby World Cup 2007 in mind. We looked to change our training, become better athletes and adapt the way we played but we got a number of serious injuries, started losing Tests and at the end of 2005 I was gone.
Woodward: That strikes a chord. I was in my office, thinking pretty much the same thing about you and the other Southern Hemisphere teams. I knew us winning would be like a red rag to a bull and that you guys would respond. So I sat down and wrote a very detailed report: 'How To Arrive At 2007 RWC As Red-Hot Favourites to Win'.
Just like you, I went for an approach which was radical to some but not for me. The RFU had backed me brilliantly for six years so I assumed they would accept my plans because we had won but it was rejected with little or no discussion. After that, I felt like I was losing control and I wasn't happy, to put it mildly. They didn't get it, and I think what upset me was I thought they didn't want to. The RFU thought it was too expensive and too radical and all we needed to do was repeat what we did in 2003, no change. But if you stand still you go backwards.
Jones: I've learnt that if you do a really good job in sport you often create enemies within your own organisation. To create great winning teams you often have to challenge the status quo because that status quo has clearly failed. If you are going to start becoming winners, change is needed but administrators, the guys in suits, feel threatened and don't like that.
Woodward: What do you make of Michael Cheika?
Jones: I'm a fan. He likes big aggressive forwards and ball- carriers and he gives his backs a bit of latitude. Robbie Deans before him was a great technical coach but I think Australia lacked a bit of identity. Australian sport is about being a bit brash and arrogant, doing things differently and Cheika understands all that. Getting Gits and the others back from Europe was smart.
Woodward: Cheika seems his own man. He's an independent thinker and could walk away from the job if he wanted. He's got the courage of his convictions and makes the big calls, like insisting Giteau be made eligible again. What's your take on Stuart Lancaster?
Jones: I don't know him but from the outside he has done a good job in getting the basics right. But his next task is whether he can find the best rugby style for his players. To me he doesn't look 100 per cent sure of exactly how he wants England to play - you can see that from his different selections. What is England's identity? Every England team who have been successful have had that aggressive bulldog defence focus and very strong set-piece. That comes first, then you can start moving the ball and add in some X factor behind.
Woodward: At Twickenham on Saturday, who is going to win?
Jones: It will be some game but if the Australian scrum holds up - and the actual number of scrums in a game is a big factor here - I'm tipping Australia. If they win their share of ball they have just a bit too much around the park. And I'd back whoever wins the pool to get all the way through to the final.
Woodward: Twickenham will really get behind the team after the disappointment against Wales. I just feel the goal-kicking and the fact that England have to win will be major factors - an England dropped goal in the last minute of the game will do us just fine!
-Daily Mail
