Graham Henry and Robbie Deans share decorated rugby paths and a rivalry born from that success and ambition.
They come from the same red-and-black surroundings, they understand the formula for rugby triumph but they go about it in different ways.
Both were snubbed by New Zealand for the top All Black job and took their talents offshore. Henry returned to reclaim the role while Deans bides his time, waiting to see how a certain event pans out in October.
They were up close and personal yesterday though on Deans' home turf, at the Hearts in Union lunch at the Westin Hotel in Sydney, where diners raised money for players affected by spinal injury.
The day doubled as Henry's 41st wedding anniversary and his timing and delivery to the 500 diners sparkled with all that experience."We have an experienced group of All Blacks," he told them. "But I am concerned at the length of the Super 15 and it taking the edge off the players."
Deans hoped his Wallabies would meet the All Blacks in the final of this year's World Cup. "I think it is important for the game that that happens. We are a group in the ascendancy, we are working hard but we have to work at lot harder," he said.
The two have rarely spent this much time so close to each other since Henry's appointment as All Black coach. Yesterday, they interacted without any tension.
They have met 12 times in international clashes with minimal post-match interaction. The All Blacks have celebrated 10 times to the Wallabies' twice.
Almost 14 years separate the pair. Deans still has a full head of hair and his frame shows the benefits of regular squash and touch. But Henry has those extra years at the top, the savvy of being through every experience imaginable in rugby, the sort of know-how Manchester United pay to retain Sir Alex Fergusson.
There might be less expectation on Deans, though there is heat in the battle for sporting and television rights in Australia which does not exist in New Zealand.
Both were quizzed by MC Phil Kearns about their take on All Black World Cup exits. Deans said the 2003 failure was a distinction of tournament play, small margins in the game and a vital ingredient called momentum.
Asked if the 2007 demise was a mix of poor foes in pool play, rest, rotation and cockiness, Henry accepted that summary.
"We played France in Agen some months before and won 45-6 [actually, it was Lyon and the All Blacks won 47-3]," Henry recalled. "And when you do that it takes the psychological edge away that you need and you have got to avoid that.
"You have just got to cater for every unknown at the tournament."
For Henry there was some doubt the All Blacks could win the tournament without Daniel Carter because he was the most influential player in the world.
It was logical then to question the chances if he was not available. He said Sonny Bill Williams was humble and modest and starting to express his skills and developing into an influential player. "We have to increase the polish as coaches," he said.
Quizzed about a couple of rare Wallaby talents, Deans pointed out that James O'Connor was barely 20, already in advance of where Carter and Richie McCaw were at similar ages. He had only turned to goalkicking a year ago and had nearly mastered it. "He makes things happen and that is good for us because we have to play ambitiously."
Similarly Quade Cooper showed that he was an X-factor player and was at the forefront of a backline swell, said Deans. "There is an element of risk when you play with ambition, but we cannot play without that to achieve success."
As a repeat challenger to Henry as All Black coach in 2007, Deans risked and lucked out.
He misjudged the ammunition he needed to convince the NZ Rugby Union about his rehab.
He lacked a quality team around him.
Henry will look uneasily at his record sheet with the All Blacks and note his side has always lost a test in each of the seven years he has been in charge.
There has always been one blip. Will there be one this year - and will it be before the World Cup?
Rugby: Coaching rivals form odd pair over lunch
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