They made an odd couple. On one side of the table sat a traditionally tattooed giant of Samoan descent.
On the other was a 31-year-old who still looks in his first year out of school.
As they yarned and shared coffee at a London hotel this week it was the 88kg five-eighths dictating to the 108kg centre.
Jonny Wilkinson's message to Sonny Bill Williams, who will make his highly anticipated debut for the All Blacks at Twickenham tomorrow morning, was simple: this is the starting point, not the conclusion of a journey.
"You can't get complacent" was the message Wilkinson gave, as narrated by Williams, 25.
"As soon as you start thinking you're in that team or in the 30-man squad, that you're going to get picked, that's when you tend to let your foot off the pedal."
It was Wilkinson's arrival at Toulon that coincided with an upturn in fortunes for Williams.
His first season was marred by injury and frustration.
He had received a call from Graham Henry while the All Blacks were in Marseille to play France, asking him what his thoughts were about coming back to try to make the All Blacks, but Williams was not even sure he belonged in the 15-man game.
"I had a chat to him and he said to me that he'd like to play for the All Blacks but he'd only come back to New Zealand if he thought he was good enough," Henry recalled. "He's that sort of person, he's very modest.
"It really only became a talking point at the end of the last Northern Hemisphere season. He thought he could be competitive and that's why he returned."
Playing outside Wilkinson and listening to him talk about what it meant to him to play for his country served two purposes: it helped Williams' understanding of rugby on the pitch and cemented his desire to wear the black jersey.
England have a lot to thank Wilkinson - who has succumbed once more to shoulder injury and will miss the autumn internationals - for over the course of his career but the achievement of inspiring Sonny Bill Williams is one they may live to regret.
"When I first went to Toulon I was injured a lot so I didn't know if I could cut it. The second year, stringing 20 games together, that gave me a lot of confidence," Williams said. "That's the reason I wanted to go back [to New Zealand] and have a crack, to prove to people, and myself, that I could play.
"I was fortunate to play alongside some greats - Jonny, Tana Umaga, [Juan] Fernandez Lobbe, Felipe Contepomi, Joe van Niekirk. Playing around those guys really helped because I knew those guys had reached the top. Being able to play alongside those guys really helped my confidence.
"I had the feeling I could mix it with the best, but for me the best players were still playing back home in New Zealand."
There will be some who remain sceptical about Williams' sudden embracing of the "black jersey" and the mystical, perhaps mythical, qualities that garment is supposed to bestow upon the wearer.
It was not long ago the man who was born into a rugby league family and grew up in the 13-man heartland of Mt Albert wanted only to play for the Kiwis and Bulldogs ... and that didn't end so well.
A delayed start to his provincial rugby career with Canterbury that included an embarrassing sojourn to the ski slopes while rehabbing an injury led many to wonder if he was taking the piste, but his modesty and "willingness to learn" have made a believer out of Dan Carter, for example, a man who takes the responsibilities of being an All Black seriously.
"When I left [the Bulldogs] I didn't care where I was going," Williams admitted.
"It was just about getting out of the situation I was in. Fortunately, Tana Umaga had the foresight that I could play rugby. Playing over there, I had to change my goals and the All Blacks were definitely the pinnacle of any person playing rugby.
"The All Blacks jersey was the one I wanted to get."
In a few hours he will be handed that jersey, a situation he still finds "surreal". That will be followed by a trot down the tunnel and on to the turf at Twickenham in front of 80,000-plus people, the vast majority of whom want evidence that there is more hype than substance to the Sonny Bill story.
Adding to the surrealism will be the fact that one of the men eyeballing him across the advantage line will be former Kiwis teammate Shontayne Hape. Along with Brad Thorn, that will make three league converts in the starting XVs.
Don't try telling Williams that the All Blacks have been handed preferential treatment.
"People tend to see the glitz and glamour on the field, but there's a lot of hard work that goes into it. That's why I'm so proud to say I'm going to be an All Black this weekend."
All Blacks: Wilkinson's words give SBW a boost
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