All Blacks coach Ian Foster with captain Sam Cane after the team's loss to Ireland in Wellington on July 16. Photo / Mark Mitchell
Is Aotearoa overreacting to the All Blacks' series loss to Ireland?
No, says sports writer Chris Rattue - "the wheels are falling off" - and the majority of Herald subscribers who joined him for a live Q&A this morning agree.
The game's corporate bosses are to blame, Rattue says, and history indicates they're unlikely to change tack.
Here's a wrap of this morning's discussion:
Ansie M: Don't you think that there is a sense of entitlement - the ABs are simply the best and must always win - in the public and media perception of the All Blacks, and conversely, a contemptuous attitude towards their opponents? Which gives rise to all the angst we now see? Maybe nothing wrong with the ABs, but time for the rest of us to come down to earth?
Chris R: The Irish team got the plaudits they deserved here, and the All Blacks need to play better than that. It's not a sense of entitlement - it's a belief around what the playing standards should be in this country. The All Blacks were rubbish - their timing was all over the place, their tactics poor and they generally lacked the energy and desperation Ardie Savea for instance showed in the final test.
Martin K: Given the vitriolic response to the losses to Ireland do you agree that fans in New Zealand don't actually like rugby… they like watching the All Blacks win?
Chris R: I wouldn't call it vitriolic ... the response is what sport is all about. You will find the same across sports around the world. It's probably fairly tame compared to what teams like the England football side have copped, and within America fans really give it to their pro sports teams. And given the circumstances, it would be a worry (particularly for rugby) if the response had not been strong. But I do agree that many Kiwi fans appear more in love with winning than the game itself.
Richard Y: At what point do you think the NZRU will say enough is enough? One loss to SA? A loss to Australia? Second, people are saying that should Scott Robertson take on the role it's a poisoned chalice but I only see upside. If he loses everyone will say "well what did you expect given the short time period?" but if he wins then people will say "see told you so!". What your thoughts?
Chris R: It is not a poisoned chalice, it is a great opportunity. I'm sure Robertson would see it like that. South Africa made a late coaching change before winning the last World Cup. Enough is enough? We are already there. The NZR has a history of bucking public opinion though.
Daren G: Team selection could change / improve. My thoughts are - a refresh at hooker, start Fakatava at 9 - he looked sharp when he came on. Refresh also the loose trio: Savea, Grace, Ioane - Sututu / Cane in the mix. Barrett, Whitelock at Lock. Ritchie M at 10. Midfield - keep Havili, we are missing ALB. Maybe Goodhue 13. Back 3: W Jordan, J Barrett, R Ioane ( Rees for Barrett maybe). McKenzie to consider in the mix as well. Sam C good when the rest of the forward pack is firing / dominating, but when they are below par I don't think Sam brings enough to 7. Ardie is our form 7 so should play him there. Thoughts?
Chris R: For what it's worth - I would start Taukei'aho at hooker and give Fakatava his shot at No. 9. What would really interest me though is to see what Scott Robertson for instance would do with selections. Yes, there is no doubt the All Blacks miss Anton Lienert-Brown's class, and Rieko Ioane is not a test centre. Would love to see him back on the wing.
Jess E: Aaron Smith's speed & length of pass gave the ABs a link that had been missing and to play an expansive fast running attack from a flattish backline. That is over 10 years ago, the pass is no longer as fast, flat and far. Add to that the forwards are not often providing him an ideal platform for good ball. The backline is resultantly plainly lateral in moving forward. Yet the ABs seem to still be expecting that attack plan to carry even in the face of opposition who are right onto it. Should not the ABs be adapting the backline to running from deeper positions & angles as France & Ireland demonstrate and Australia too, so very well, in their last test against SA?
Chris R: Yes, Aaron Smith appears to have lost an edge. And he is approaching the age of 34. Suddenly, incredibly, it could be time to contemplate a change at halfback, and we are talking about an all-time great here, the best halfback in All Blacks history by most people's reckoning.
But one of Ian Foster's problems is he seems wedded to the old hands. One of the All Blacks' longstanding problems is the pressure to win, the image, which prevents them from trying new players at opportune times between World Cups (the way South Africa for example seem able to do).
Then again, the problems are bigger than Aaron Smith, but as a veteran great in a key position, he didn't seem able to turn things around against Ireland. (I also believe the All Blacks HAD to try and blood a new lock against Ireland - they are courting disaster relying on the great Retallick-Whitelock combo for the World Cup.)
Andrew: Last month England had 50 points scored against them when they were thrashed by a Barbarian team at Twickenham. They were outplayed at every facet of the game. Fast forward a few weeks later, they win a tightly contested series against Australia and their coach Eddie Jones is hailed as a genius. And two weeks ago South Africa were defeated at home by Wales for the first time in their history. The point is, do we need to get some perspective here when is comes to assessing the future of the ABs under coach Foster? I didn't hear calls for his head when walloped Ireland in the first test only 3 weeks ago. I know we live in an age of cancel culture, but has he become sackable two weeks later?
Chris R: With all due respect, I think people misread the first test. I struggle to recall a touring team creating so many scoring chances. The question to me is this: who was the best man to coach the All Blacks after the 2019 World Cup? It was not Ian Foster. There were other amazing choices.
Foster was part of an All Black coaching regime that had lost its way. He has no history of success as a head coach. He hadn't been a head coach for nearly a decade. Many people doubted him from the beginning, so it is wrong to claim that he had suddenly become sackable. The Irish series reconfirmed people's belief that he isn't the best person for the job.
Martin H: NZ Rugby seems very keen to adopt "hybrid" models of selection ... players who can play here or there or anywhere ... same with appointment of the coaches - finding men who can be "added on" to change the blend of the existing set up. It seems to be a defensive strategy, one designed to protect what they have rather than take a calculated risk to gain more. I think most people can understand that there is plenty to lose but we can't understand why the NZRU doesn't pursue a strategy which has plenty to win. Blending the highly capable with the incapable will more than likely produce an average result. For this reason I think most of NZ want brave decisions that look to the future. Personally I could take a WC loss if we were on a trajectory of longer term success - building to something to be once again proud of. Scott R seems to fit all of the criteria to achieve this.
Chris R: Agree. This is (another) moment requiring a reset for the future. But the NZR just can't see it. They don't seem to realise how much trouble both the All Blacks and the game itself is in. CEO Mark Robinson strikes me as a No. 2 sort of bloke, a bit like Ian Foster. We never hear from the chairman. Rugby needs a bold, charismatic leader, not a grey corporate type in charge. Scott Robertson is an absolute godsend for the game, and they can't see it.
PBB: Fresh faces and ideas is the only way ... it's obvious the northern hemisphere teams have overtaken us regarding coaching and playing styles. Foster has tried and failed to improve performance, and the players' leadership group needs to change. We have the players, it's the disconnect within the team that's struggling.
Chris R: Fresh faces. I'd vote for that. It is a team in need of a long-term rebuild. But who would a new coach bring in? Lock is one area that worries me. We have relied on the greatest locking combo in rugby history, but there doesn't seem to be anyone close to the Retallick/Whitelock ilk coming through.
Mark W: There was a very distinct differences in performance between the two teams. The All Blacks win when it's hard and heavy in the ruck. It's very apparent Ireland won because their team is younger, faster and fitter. What is the All Blacks plan to address the older players who are quite frankly on their "farewell tours"?
Chris R: I thought the Irish won because they had better tactics, were better drilled, and they protected the ball. They used their muscle superbly with clever attacks, picking whether to smash straight at the All Blacks or flick it around the back. But they always seemed in total control of almost every situation. A key to playing the All Blacks is not exposing the ball to turnovers. Fairly quickly, it is the All Blacks who blink first these days, kicking the ball away.
Yes, ageing players is a big factor, and one Foster is not addressing.
Jane S: Was it my febrile imagination or did the Irish exhibit more muscles than our guys ... maybe it was the tight tops. Do the ABs need to spend more time in the gym?
Chris R: Tight tops are a big help, but IMO you are correct. In particular, we are not producing world-class props.
Malcolm D: Thinking outside of the square. Send the Māori All Blacks to South Africa with their coaching and management team. They actually showed some fire in their bellies against the Irish. Leave the current All Black Squad at home to re-hone their skills, structure and passion under a new coaching structure. Would that work?
Chris R: Ahhhhhh ... no. But I agree totally with David Moffett who opined that while still trying to win the 2023 World Cup, the All Blacks should now be looking to rebuild for the 2027 tournament with a fresh new squad, and thus avoid the quick fixes. This is a tired team, and appointing Ian Foster was a tired decision.
David L: Chris, who would you have at hooker, midfield, and what would your loosies combination be please?
Chris R: We all have our opinions I suppose and I will give you mine, but what would really be interesting is to see how a new coach approached it.
The loose forwards are a massive problem because we are lacking the authority and brilliant combinations that greats of the past gave the All Blacks. I see Akira Ioane best as an impact forward coming off the bench. Much prefer the likes of Blackadder and Papalii to start. But we lack a giant No. 6, something needed at World Cups where the games turn into muscular trench warfare. And for all of his wonderful work, Ardie Savea is on the small side. These sorts of issues are why the All Blacks fall over at the World Cup. It is up to the selectors/coaches to develop someone there (and not stupidly hurl a lock into the role for a World Cup quarter-final).
For me, the best midfield would still be Anton Lienert-Brown and Jack Goodhue, presuming they are back to their best. I wouldn't let Rieko Ioane anywhere near the No. 13 jersey.
Gordon L: It's a question of belief in the coach's attitude. Fossi just does not come across as inspirational in his public presentations. That's why he was a questionable appointment from the get go. So if that same impression filters down to AB training and coaching sessions … it is no question why our national team is where they are. Razor has that X factor to lift team expectations back to where they need to be. He a seasoned success story. The NZRU can change tack now, there is just time for RWC, but now and not after a SA series loss and a string of autumn international defeats.
Chris R: Ian Foster just doesn't come across as a powerful head coach. The inside word is that the players do like him, but then again, they would since he is selecting them. From what I hear (not totally verified), the players are less happy with some of the assistants.
Kihi T: Do you think that the players are given enough freedom to adapt to the situations on the field, especially when or if it is a huge deviation from the strategy as determined by the coaching staff? It is widely known that the players themselves have a lot of input and influence into the game plan and approach, but does non compliance (not sticking to the game plan) effect their chances of being selected again?
Chris R: Very interesting question, but not one I can really answer. Ireland were so well drilled - they had clearly planned options, and they played a sort of style which often produces World Cup winners. Your point about adhering to game plans is a very good one - we on the sidelines often judge players by how we think they should play, whereas the real way to judge them relies heavily on what they were supposed to be doing. This being rugby, we don't get a lot of info about that. As a general observation, I think we need a lot more information about modern rugby tactics, the way fans etc in other sports are informed.
Brent C: How much influence do you think Silverlake will have Chris? Surely they need an internationally marketable team and that includes the coach.
Chris R: Silver Lake bought the All Blacks at the wrong time, just before it became obvious that the wheels are falling off. NZR happens to be lucky, because Scott Robertson is not only a winning coach, but he has some much-needed x-factor. But it keeps looking this gift horse in the mouth. Incredible really. Hard to believe they are so stupid.
Garry B: Chris, what is your opinion on selections - last test
- Why select two out of form hookers that were hopeless?
- Best # 7 is Savea with out a doubt
- RTS in reserves untried and out of his depth at this level
- Why was Jack Goodhue not in 23?
- Both Barretts are out of form - TOO much kicking
Chris R: I have long believed that the future was Richie Mo'unga, although he is not the finished article. The All Black plans should centre around giving his magic feet the chance to shine. They need to say 'mate, this is your team. Run it, and run wild'. They have knocked his confidence by stuffing around, and I suspect he is miffed at Barrett swanning back from Japan and taking the jersey.
As I understand it, Goodhue was still getting over an injury. But he should be in the side.
Yes, too much kicking from Barrett. He must be under instruction though. I would have Mo'unga starting and Will Jordan at 15, so BB would be on the bench.
RTS ... it is an indictment on rugby that they need to haul a league fullback into the midfield.
The loose forwards are all about combinations, and Savea's leg drive is a plus at No. 8.
Codie Taylor seems to have slipped and his lineout throwing doesn't feel safe. Taukei'aho for me.
Scott Barrett is a high-class locking option at his best, but a touch small.
The missing rugby jersey was found after a two-year search.