Leaning forward, arms folded, Joe McDonnell looks almost too trim to be a prop.
But then, it's not that long ago the man nicknamed "pudding" used to be a second five-eighth.
"I was a wee bit lighter then. I slowly started moving my way in and I settled at prop," he said at Wellington's Westpac Stadium yesterday.
"I was only about 92kg then. I'm 115 to 116 now."
It was his coach - former All Black first five-eighth Duncan Robertson - who decided a burly midfielder was just what Otago Country needed in the late 1990s.
But it took only a year playing in Dunedin for McDonnell to realise his potential in the front row, make the Otago team and in 2002, the All Blacks.
He's now playing his second season in the capital, and tonight will captain his Wellington Lions against the visiting Lions, elevated to the job with the likes of Tana Umaga and Rodney So'oialo missing on national duty.
"Not many people get to captain their provincial side, I'm stoked pretty much," he said of being fill-in.
McDonnell, 32, is a far cry from the younger professional footballers, who have done little else since leaving school.
He's been a truck driver, a sheep shearer, a road builder and a wall-stripper.
When he wasn't on Highlanders duty, he drove the team bus.
Does he drive it for Wellington? "No, but I would if I had to."
Today, he is simply looking forward to tackling the Lions, suggesting the visitors need to start testing their combinations ahead of the first test which could provide for a good game and an even better test for Wellington.
McDonnell's motivation, if it's needed, has been buoyed by another one of his old teams, the New Zealand Maori, beating the tourists at Hamilton last Saturday.
"I was really happy for the boys, and [coach] Matt Te Pou.
"They've always worked hard and been the underdogs, and they've struggled to get international games. But now, they're getting some really good games."
And it's those good games players remember of course.
Asked yesterday if he was on the terraces of Carisbrook when Otago beat the Lions last time they visited in 1993, McDonnell goes blank. "I can't remember mate. It's a wee while ago."
McDonnell leads from the front
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