KEY POINTS:
In the wake of the Wanganui gang incident, debate is raging about how to deal with the gang issue - and whether gangs should be banned (and even if this could be possible).
Or are people over-reacting in the heat of the moment? Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia says not all gang members are criminals.
So there is a range of strong opinions.
Submissions to this forum debate have now closed. Here is a selection of your views on the topic.
Youth worker (Waikuku)
I believe the gang culture has grown from an absent father culture. With so few male role models the vacuum has been filled by an ultra macho ultra violent power who actively seek young males to subscribe to a whanau set of values, the gang! Also I have seen promising changes result from a growing awareness of the less healthy aspects of gang culture and now certain codes of conduct are being banned. I have also seen some real changes resulting from the harm P was doing to the gang themselves family, mothers, sisters and brothers ending up buried. They have learned the hard way not to poison themselves with toxic money making ventures.I have also seen older gang members take a "real " leadership role and swap gang patches for taiaha and kapahaka groups. Finally some are waking up and providing leadership with mana for the young. Gangs and drug seem inseparable when in fact it is not the gangs creating the problems from drugs, it is the law,Prohibition increases both the price of drugs the risks associated.
Concerned Teen
I have to disagree with Ms. Turia's comment. How can we compare the criminals to the law enforcers, in essence, the good with the bad. Gangs are bad, we are taught this right from when we are small. I don't know where Ms. Turia has been for the past number of years, but I personally have never ever seen a good thing come out of a gang. Fear, yes, fighting, yes, drugs, yes. Community service? no, what about helping kids with school? Somehow I don't think so, in fact, gangs seem to be taking kids out of school, moulding them into law breaking citizens. And if some of these gang members are not criminals, as Ms. Turia suggests, then they are associating with criminals, knowing about criminal acts taking place. Is this too not a crime to report these crimes? There is no way to paint them up and make them seem good, because the guts of it is, a baby died because of these gangs. A baby. They took the life of an innocent child. Try defending that Ms. Turia.
Wanganui Girl
Why don't these gang members go to university and get a real job like the rest of us and work hard to get luxuries in life, instead of stealing from others and causing mayhem in the community.
There is so much we can do (Auckland)
Parents do not have good parenting skills. Parents battle with their issues. . Parents forget now that they have children to care for. . Kids floundering as the home is unstable. . Kids start to struggle not enough nourishment (food, love) they cannot learn. They become dysfunctional. They are unwanted as they lack manners, self-control. . Feeling unworthy. . They go to find love. They find others that are like them and stick with them as they understand their problems. They need 'things' to survive like food, beer to drown their sorrows. They haven't got skills and therefore not working so they steal. . These groups stay together and do organised crime to survive. It is the only way they know how to survive. The ultimate desire of a human being is to be loved! Gangs come from families which is lacking or there is no love.
Tawhaowhao
Gangs are a by-product of the society we live in. You can no more get rid of them than get rid off other so-called "respectable" sections of society. As long as the $ rules you will have gangs. The drug dealing supposedly run by gangs fills a demand that society has for these chemicals. Alcohol and tobacco the big killers of people and destroyers of families are of course legal so people who aren't gang members make their small fortunes out of these. To rant and rave about gangs is to moan about yourself and the structure of this society that allows the creation of the haves and the have-nots. Don't shut your doors open your heart.
Brandon Hutchison
Of course we can't ban groups of people, unless we really want to multiply up the tyranny of the state. That would be ironical when we have just celebrated ANZAC day when so many purportedly fought against tyranny. A simple and good start to the crime problem, would be to have a good honest look at drug policy. Drug prohibition (not drugs except for alcohol) creates and drives so much crime, yet doesn't stop people from using drugs, but in fact it seems to stimulate interest and trade in drugs. Start by legalising (with proper regulation) the less harmful drugs such as cannabis, LSD and XTC, stop the mindless propaganda against all drugs, especially the current hysteria about "P". It just prevents rational debate. Then do a fundamental review of drug law and repeal the Misuse of Drugs Act.
N. Perry
I really dont have a problem with gangs. I believe gangs have a problem with each other.
Dick (Dunedin)
Tariana, I do not respect you or your view in anyway. You put the New Zealand Police Force in the same category as violent thugs. I once belonged to the New Zealand Police Force, though I am now retired, but I take your comment as an insult to myself, my heritage and the whole history of the police force within New Zealand. These gangs such as the Black power and mongrel mob are not wanted in society, they should be banished back to their islands and never allowed to enter the great land of Aotearoa again. It should also be noted that the very police men and women that u are insulting are the same kind and caring individuals that protect you and your entire family everyday that you go out into the community, they are the people that help an elderly lady cross the street, they are the people that would cut off their right hand just to make sure that there is peace on the streets. I and many others would think you were out of your mind to be insulting such people, Tariana.
Zach Bell
Tariana Turia's comments on gangs illustrate her clear lack of understanding on the issue of gangs in New Zealand. Putting the New Zealand Police in the same league as gangs such as Black power is complete idiocy. Gangs do nothing but promote crime and violence, they revolve around illegal activities. The New Zealand Police keep our community safe, without them we would not survive.I bet there is not a single person in any of these gangs that does not have a criminal conviction of some sort. Gangs should be banned and all members thrown in jail.
Ken, MK
I took my family away from NZ - driven out by the constant violence and the Kiwi uncaring attitude. I read the NZ Herald site almost every day - and I see that there is no improvement at all. Read Your Views, you will see a fairly consistent view - NZ society is fundamentally sick and needs help. Gangs are just an indicator that NZ society needs to take drastic action to drive out the 'real man', 'hard man' rubbish and instill some proper values. NZ needs to understand that 'mana' is being misused and perverted to mean 'savage barbarian. It's time to stop worshipping violent people. There is only one way to deal with gangs - zero tolerance on crime.
Becky power
I think that gangs should be outlawed.
Al (Singapore)
I am an expat Kiwi living in Singapore. I have been an expat for roughly half of the last 30 years. I like my Kiwi heritage. I also feel a deep sense of shame every time I arrive in Auckland .It doesn't take long to see the first gang member, dressed like scum, walking the pit bull on a choker chain. The sight disgusts me and the whole kiwi socialist, bludger society that supports this attitude disgusts me. How can we be so great and strong on the rugby field and so weak and pathetic when it comes to law and order and intimidation. I cannot see NZ changing and I will never return to live until it does.
Shar
This act was cowardly and murderous and every effort should be made to catch those 'individuals' responsible. I don't care one way or another about the gangs. Banning them will have little effect, but catching the criminals that committed this act and punishing them to the full extent of the law must be the first priority of everyone involved. The family involved in this tragedy have my full sympathy. Regardless of their affiliations, they were in their own home doing their own thing when they came under violent attack. A mother's loss in a tragedy such as this is just the same regardless if her partner is wearing a patch, a suit or a policeman's uniform.
Adam
This is a typical reply from Tariana, always passing the buck trying to shift the blame/focus someoneone else.Take some responsibility -gangs are bad, gang members are bad.
Lee (Auckland)
I am doing research on gang violence and gangs itself .My point of view is yes they should ban gangs. The law should be alot tougher on those that offend in in NZ. Our goverment is weak and should be making sentences tougher out there. Maybe bringing in the death penalty on those that kill and re-offend to wake this country up.
Arron
The government will never ban gangs anyway, as 99 per cent of the gang members will be Labour voters. By giving our money to them in the form of welfare and state houses, and by ensuring that they don't really get punished for their crimes, Labour is ensuring their votes for many years to come. Plus those that are sick of the society created in NZ will leave for overseas, and these are productive/skilled people (read National or other right of centre voters). Therefore it would be a bad move politically for Labour to crack down on gangs. Are you listening Ron Mark? This is the government that your party is keeping in power.
Brad (Auckland)
While I hate the Mongrel Mob and Black Power as much as the next guy, it's a little dangerous to start going down the path of banning gangs, and gang-colours/patches. Any law which attempts to do this runs the very real risk of infringing significantly on our civil liberties. Now, I know a lot of people will groan and say "not another catch-phrase" at the mere mention of civil liberties, but think about it, where do you draw the line? What exactly constitutes a gang? When does a bandana stop being a fashion accessory and start being a "gang colour"? Will 60yr old Joe Blogs and his "gang" of Harley Davidson loving friends now be locked up? Does 16yr old Jimmy Smiths group of 20 or 30 school friends represent a dangerous threat to society? Is Grey Power a gang? These might seem ridiculous, but how do you make a legal distinction between a group of friends, or an organised social/political group, and a "gang"? If it was as simple as defining a gang as "a group of people who break the law lots" we wouldn't need a law, because those people would/should get locked up under our present laws anyway.
Luke Mason
Come on get real. Gangs are not cool and they don't give anything back to society other than fear and intimidation. These gangs should go out and get an education and contribute to society, if they want to express themselves and liberate society do it in a positive way and join a political party and fight for their beliefs. Organised crime is nothing other than self gratifying bullying and breeding hatred towards fellow man.
Kerry
Why are the SAS in Afghanistan? They should be in Wanganui..
Murray
The ability of the country to deal with the gang issue is well demonstrated by the fact that the Auckland police helicopter had to be deployed to Wanganui. What a joke. So clearly the police do not have the resources needed. Banning the gangs outright will not be any more successful than sitting down and talking with them and giving them an unwarranted legitimacy.If the gangs are to be controlled and this country returned to its people, our hard pressed police need to be adequately resourced in the first instance. (manpower, tecnology, equipment). Secondly membership of gangs should me made so difficult with targeting of prospects by law enforcement that any prospect will think twice. When arrested, confiscate their patches and destroy them, with publicity. And as for the view that "not all gang members are criminals", is the Hon. Mrs Turia not aware that membership of many of the gangs requires as part of the initiation rite, the commission of a criminal act? The gang problem will be more effectively addressed when community leaders stop looking for excuses and acknowledge that gang members are the ones who choose to be gang members and behave in a particular way.
Gangbuster
Gangs should be banned; start with "Grey power"!
Kiwi Lisa
Sure gangs should be banned. But, I'd go one better and deport the entire lot of gang members on e.g. Soames Island and make sure they have ample supplies of guns and ammo enabling them to kill one another off in as short time as possible. End of Kiwi gang problem forever, the cheap way. What a wonderful and peaceful place New Zealand would be afterward.
Batman
Come on wake up, New Zealand is a crap place to live, I´m from Auckland and took my family away from here to Europe where things are totally better in everyway. Look at the population of NZ, the things you read in the Herald everyday just sickens me and confirms my actions of leaving in the first place, yes gangs are bad, so is the poverty, the justice system, the police, the politicians, I mean, in everyway NZ has just fallen, then you have the media boosting egos on the tragedy that happened in the first place. Tell me what are the benefits of living in NZ? The cost of living out weighs the pay you receive in employment, then you have the tax rate, not to mention the way NZ governs the way Traffic Wardens dishing out parking tickets to meet there quota, Gangs are brought about in the first place through poverty, racism, drugs..and yeah you can all say yeah they all do drugs, but so do half the politicians, Lawyers, and lets not forget NZ sporting heroes as well, and you dont think that there tied up in the criminal element. Speaking as a kiwi on the other side of the world, you are all blind, totally,your all quick to pass the buck! Maybe open your eyes a little..
Richard
I remember as a kid, hiding where we lived as a gang murdered some near us. Those who think gangs do good, I believe are deluded, and buying into the whole facade of this gang life where gangs are a major player in the criminal rings in NZ.Frankly I don't think our police can handle this problem. I say call gangs what they are, an act of terrorism, for the terror that they hold on streets, towns, etc. Call the army in, and have them get rid of the gang problem
John
I have had individual gang members work for our company over some years and they have all proved themselves in all respects to rank alongside any of their counterparts. I think it is a 'pack' thing., Liken this last shooting to the 'pack rape' attack where Police officers were recently accused. Any difference?
Concerned.
I think that gangs should be banned. I don't understand what 'positive' behaviour they have had on society, especially in New Zealand. Gang behaviour is a major issue we need to address. Not only has it lead to countless deaths, casualties and thefts etc. it is rubbing off onto the younger generation. Gang behaviour has no positive effects whatsoever. I would like the first person who wrote on this forum to explain what exactly he means when he says this. To say it is for protection and a means for looking out for one another is insufficient as we have police to do that for us.
Criminal gangs
Gangs are criminal by definition. They choose to describe themselves as such to highlight the difference from Clubs, Groups or associations and they trade on their ability to intimidate people to avoid the consequences of their illegal actions. Members are not "patched" for their good work in selling girl scout cookies or leading reading recovery programs. NZ history is littered with examples of people who participated in violent crimes to demonstrate to their fellow members that they were "staunch" enough to deserve the patch. To ban them is easy. A representative group could be assembled to decide what groups comprise a criminal gang and once decided, a notice could be published in the NZ Gazette. What is difficuilt about that? This is not a Maori only issue, Hells Angels are mainly white, Skinheads are exculsively white, Triads are Chinese and the Yakuza are Japanese. Colour gangs in South Auckland are mainly Pacific Island. Of course there are other criminals, but stopping uniformed thugs giving the fingers to Police and society would be a good start on the problem.
Huia (Gold Coast Aust)
Tariana Turias comments are typical diatribe that the Maoridom needs like a hole in the head. Blaming it on the Asian gangs is crap. The clowns who shot the little girl will be suitably proud of themselves having proven once again how tough and staunch they are. Both sides are equally as bad as the other and proud of it. There is no respect from these people and banning them will do nothing. The government are frightened of them and the police are too busy issuing traffic offences. The local people need to take matters into their own hands literally. The person or persons who killed that little baby are deserving of special attention when they finally go down for it? NZ gangs are a cancer on society and for a little country the numbers are ludicrous. Thank God I dont live here.
Greg Capper
Its time to get rid of these baby Murderers once and for all. How gutless of these guys to go out and now murder defenceless babies, oh yeah – real tough men hiding behind their patches. I noticed how they also cover their faces on TV - how coward! I guess if I was a gutless baby murderer, I too would want to cower and hide....
Sort it out
Some of the answers and comments on here are a little simple. We all know that this isn't a new problem, now a uniquely kiwi one, it is a problem that countries all over the globe battle. As for the expatriate kiwis claiming life is better in Australia, the U.K. or Singapore.. Come on, you may not be reading your local papers, or in the case of Singapore, you may be forgetting you live in a police state! It seems like the perfect solution to send everyone off to the army. Yep, that will sort them out. But what if these people have serious mental issues. Do we really need to give them training on how to kill? Plus, why bug the army, they already do a wonderful job training recruits who wholeheartedly want to be there. Let the army and the police arm themselves, and go on in guns a blazing. Where are we living? Waco, Texas? Rio de Janeiro? I don't want armed police in our streets anymore than armed gangsters. Maori need to sort this out some say. How can they do that? They have neither the resources or the ability to pass laws, or enforce them on their own members, in the same way many parents can't control their own kids. The answer is Education Focus more on it in poorer areas!
NaOH
Gangs are a product of society. Banning is the easy option. The nature of society must change to affect what is produced. Every action of every person alters society slightly. All it takes is slightly more focused action from every person to make a difference. Freak a gangster by giving them a hug...
John Robb
Paul(Sydney) I think if you consult the statistics you'll find that violent crime is far more prevalent in Oz. NZ has a few drive-bys which don't usually result in death, but if you look at Australia's gangland slayings in Melbourne alone, dozens have died. Incidentally I was not expressing a partisan opinion I am neither an "Ocker or" a "Kiwi", but have lived for several years in both countries and before you say it I am going back where I belong, but I much prefer life in the "colonies". I'll be back.
Hux
To the family of Jhia Harmony Te Tua Kia Kaha Kia Manawanui Kia toa, be strong through this time of hardship and I sincerely send my regards to you an your family, Arohanui. To government something desperately needs to be done about these "thugs" running riot amongst our street, more actions and laws need to be placed to ban gang related groups. Its not fair an innocent two year old has died because of adults stupidity, to all MPs; you have the cheek to set up rules and regulations to ban discipline when you cant even protect our streets this would not have happened if something more effective had been placed, you are to blame for the death of beby "Jhia".
Wiggans
When society provides houses,welfare and a host of options to these people and they repay by making and selling poison ,stealing,intimidation and killings,then we as citizens have a right to withdraw those privileges. If we can send good men and woman to help bring safety and peace overseas why do we tolerate thugs strutting our streets? The answer is the lack of political will .A party that would declare itself 'at war' with the gangs , list its intentions and follow through would be in at the next election.
Rob
"Not all gang members are criminals" Rubbish!! They have to commit a crime to get their patch.
Peter
The one thing clear is an alternative lifestyle, which is established from the consequence of leaving schools. Whatever the cause of leaving schools, when one is in a desperate position, gangs may appear a natural choice. To deal with gangs therefore is not only addressing the cause, but also providing an admirable alternative. But since this approach costs money to business people in the famous phrase of 'tax payer', a measure must be generated according to the status quo. In that, participants must commit a crime first. The crime is thus justified allocated funding for professional providers, to ensure this alternative lifestyle is sustained. While the problem is under controlled, taxpayer is condensed at the top end of society. You see, whether the rich gets a tax cut or not, they are guaranteed a high income, the poor becomes the means of a socialist nanny state. Notice how the Maori Party has itself become an elite party!
Murray Guy
Tapu Misa writes: "So, let's, by all means, outlaw gangs. Let's legislate them out of existence, and pretend we don't have a problem any more. But we might want to outlaw poverty and bad parenting first. That seems just as achievable." Maori Party spokespersons insist 'patched gangs'and their members have rights, many are jolly fine folk, do not warrant being outlawed.Are these the same people that insist loving adults who smack a child must be ciminalised? No wonder politicians struggle to be seen as credible!
Sensei
The comments by Turia are totally rubbish. The only reason she is in parliament is because of the PC culture that is ruining NZ. As for gangs the police should crack down on them. Raid their ganghouses etc...Ban gangs and put anyone who is part of a gang such as the mongrel mob, white power, black power (whoever) in prison. The problem is though many of these people are parents and teach their children their bad ways and its a never ending cycle of hate. I love NZ but many things need to be changed. Gangs and the way they are treated is one of the many changes needed
Andrew
A kind Singaporian-style buttet in the back of the head would probably do the trick quite nicely.
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