KEY POINTS:
Laws covering young drivers seem likely to be toughened as growing calls for an overhaul to the licensing system find favour in the Beehive.
A spate of serious crashes involving young drivers has put the licensing system under the microscope, and Transport Safety Minister Harry Duynhoven yesterday said "there has to be some change".
This forum debate has now closed. Here is a selection of your views on the topic.
Muriel
These most definitely should be toughened up. 15 is far too young for driving on Roads. They are too immature to understand the consequences of speeding. 18 is old enough to be granted a learners licence. Also people tailgating should be prosecuted as 9 times out of 10 they end up crashing. They dont seem to understand our long a car takes to stop. Drivers of all ages do not seem to understand that you cannot overtake on the inside on a bend especially if someone is indicating that they are turning into a drive.
Allison
I believe they should not be able to drive large engined cars until 18 or 20. There should be a limit on horsepower allowed to be driven.
Tex Everett
I agree that current driving tests seem not as good as they may be. Many drivers I see, of all ages, can't back a car. Many drive onto the wrong side of the road when turning into a street. I often meet drivers on the wrong side of the road at intersections. The age of drivers needs to be raised. Compulsory full insurance should a part of owning and operating a vehicle. There should also be a better way of proving ownership of a vehicle, as current means are borderline useless. ALL drivers should be fully retested every 5-10 years.
Andre
15 is way too young, look at European countries for an idea. In my opinion 18 would be an age of a little increased mental fortitude. life experience coupled with a more responsible attitude would make road traffic safer for everybody.One could look at granting exceptions for younger people living in remote areas with no other means of travel. But then there is always the good old pushbike or moped for these cases.
Amanda
Young people with part-time jobs need to be able to get to and from them on time and, especially in rural areas, often the only viable way to travel is by private car - most parents have no time to drive their kids back and forth all evening and weekend. Living in the public-transport-starved Waitakere Ranges, I had a car from age 15/16 for transport to and from work, and my parents were gracious enough to pay for a defensive driving course that has saved my skin on a number of occasions. Perhaps these should be compulsory or publicly-funded? I really dont think the legal driving age should go up to 18, but I think a 1300cc restriction and a lower speed limit until age 18 is probably a very good idea.
Emma Wilson
If we reflected on science and medical evidence, there would be enough information to tell us teenagers have poorly formed and controlled frontal lobes (the part of our brain that controls our impulses or judgement etc) therefore giving a young teenager (aged 15-19) The effect of poor decisions and driving affect the wider community, therefore in theory the community should be protected from these young minds. Stricter control over hours of driving and parental punishment for misdoings should also be considered. Lower thresholds for impounding and licensing lost should be introduced as deterrents However I stand by my opening statement, which is the young teenage mind is not fully developed to take on the responsibly of driving and understanding consequences at such a young age. I suggest 18 with a restriction period of 2 years. With exceptions for people employed who need to drive for their job and then employers need to take responsibility for putting teenage employee thru "defensive driving courses."
Adrienne Murphy
Instead of lengthening the time you can take to get a full licence, restrict it to two years. Either that or bring back immediate full licence but with a Defensive Driving Course as a prerequisite. I don't think it made any difference whatsoever when this graduated licence system was brought in (maybe more revenue). They need to sit through some film maybe of results of horrifying crashes, made to think about possible victims, or themselves or loved ones as victims. Learn more about the hazards of driving including drugs and drinkdriving etc it is all very anonymous when you see it on TV.
Beverley
agree with Jeremys comments. In addition to that, young people have been taught they have their rights and no-one can tell them what to do and that includes their families. They will do what they like. Someone should have taught them other people have rights also. Parents rights have been totally eroded to the point where a lot of kids won't listen so I guess we can expect to see more deaths. Yes I know there are parents who spend up large on vehicles and allow their offspring to drive big powerful machines. How responsible is that? I would like to see the government forget about the anti-smacking law and move quickly to stop more young folk killing themselves and others on our road. It is a tragic waste of life.
Stewart Jessiman
I think it is about time that driving laws in this country are changed. Powerful cars should not be in the hands of childern anymore.The age of learner drivers needs to be lifted to 21 years and a cc restriction on their cars should be in place. 15 year old kids in high powered motor cars needs to be stopped or more deaths will occur.
Robert
Auckland has been trying very hard to motivate people to use public transport to alleviate our over crowded roads. Elevating the age to 17 will force kids to use public transport, there by resolving two problems in one go!
Andrew Gee
There will always be a small percentage of recidivist driving offenders that will continue to drive and offend regardless of their license status. If there is consideration being given to changing disqualification penalties then the enforcement and probably the penalty for that offence must be harder. As has been pointed out before fines dont seem to work and, in more cases than one, the court has written off the accumulated fines; thereby releasing the offender to blatantly thumb the nose at society and it's conforms. Most of offenders would be a minority of drivers, they tend to congregate and are more visible on weekends. Target them. Change the laws to confiscation of the vehicle for driving with unlicensed passengers after 10pm, driving while disqualified etc. Lets increase the penalty to loss of privilege, for that is what driving is, by removing the vehicle from the road rather than accumulating a financial debt through fines that may be harder to recover.
With respect to the power of vehicles available perhaps we need to look at a vehicle registration system related to performance (kilowatts or HP) and put restricted or learner drivers in vehicles up to a certain perormance level. With motorcycles, for example, there is an arbitrary 250cc maximum capacity for people prior to full license. This really is a nonsense as there are 250cc bikes that can do 100km (18-20kw) or 250cc that can do 200km/hr (30-50kw)with tremendous acceleration that would be attractive to a young inexperienced rider. By rating motorcycles and cars by performance and requiring learners and restricted riders/drivers to only ride up to a certain level we would create a safer environment.
Mike
I dont think it should be harder to obtain a learner licence. I believe it is a lack of cognitive thinking ability of that age group. In other words, the younger kids who are skilled enough to drive a car and pass the test are not necessarily skilled enough to behave maturely on the road. It seems it is a lack of matureness rather than skill which is causing these accidents (speed etc are to blame, not the kids inability to maneuver the roads). I believe that rules need to be toughened. The likes of increasing the driving age, increasing the "learner" period, harsher penalties for those "inexperienced" drivers who breach their conditions.
Matt
Car Learners and Restricted Licences should have the same engine restrictions placed on them as motorcycles. A person with a Motorcycle Learners or Restricted Licence can only drive a Motorcycle up to 250cc. Likewise a person on their car Learner or Restricted Licence should only be allowed to drive a car that is a non-turbo/ non-performance 1500cc.
Anne-Marie
I think we should toughen the laws on several things related to young people - including driving and also drinking. So often we hear the same old spurious logic repeated - "if they are old enough to vote and fight for their country then they are old enough to drink / drive / marry / insert current issue here". My own logic goes like this: Physically and mentally teenagers may be adults but emotionally they are still children. They most certainly do not make sensible decisions about driving and/or drinking, and probably we should raise the age of other things as well. And no I am not all that much older myself, but I am old enough to look back at myself in the years since I was a teenager and realise that at that time I was still developing and growing up. At the age of 24 for example I was certainly not the same person as I was at 15.
Sean Wilson
Overhaul the entire system. Make the minimum age 17 or 18. Change the test to enforce driver responsibility and etiquette. No more of this 'who cares' attitude. Make insurance compulsory. That way, if they have an accident, they pay, not everyone else. Make the fine fit the crime. If they kill someone, send them to jail for manslaughter, rather than a slap on the wrist. For lesser offences, confiscate their cars (sell them and give the money to the emergency services). If they are repeat offenders, forget about demerit points. Use those on the first occasion. Next time, ban them for a period of months depending on the offence. Next time, ban them completely, and after that jail them. If these people are grown up enough to hoon around in souped up cars, then they are grown up to pay the penalty. Oh yes, one more thing. I assuming that not all 15 year olds can afford to pay for these cars by themselves, so maybe the parents who pay for the cars should be a bit more responsibl e in what they buy for their son/daughter. After all, they are the ones giving them the keys to a potential killer (the driver that is, not the car!).
Phillipa Preston
I have watched my daughter and many of her contempories work their way through the licensing system, it's a costly and protracted system. It takes so long to get a full license young people, who are not renowned for patience, can't wait that long. Most of them get a learners license and, once they can manage a vehicle, off they go as if it is a full license. I would suggest giving options to shorten the process and toughen up on non compliance. Fines hurt but confiscating a car prevents reoffending.
Rob
It seems to me that in this era of blame, lack of responsibility by many, lack of respect and the inability to have consequential thinking, young people have adopted this whole heartedly.It is impossible to legislate morality yet governments continue to attempt to dictate this.
Consider the "smacking" debate. Do you really think that making "smacking" a criminal offence will stop a parent or caregiver with an anger problem hitting a child? Again it's an ambulance that arrives much too late to negate the physical and psychological impact on vulnerable people.
The adjustments to the licensing process such as are being discussed presently while will produce a better technical driver, it is the underlying mentality that must change before we see a significant change in the abysmal record of young drivers. How harsh can you make an infringement penalty before it starts to impact attitudes and produces a fundamental change in the young driver's attitude to life?
The following aspects will both have an impact on technical driving ability and provide a higher hurdle before a new driver can get behind a wheel.
1. Compulsory driver training course
2. 3rd Party insurance charge added to the cost of a restricted licence
3. Zero modifications (needs full definition) to any vehicle driven by anyone without a full licence
4. Maximum engine size (note 3. above) before a full licence is attained and a progressive increase in engine size over the next 3-5 years.
Jono
Again, the government is picking on a minority. If the accident involved someone over 23/25, there would not be minimal coverage and debate. The reality is that drivers of all ages in NZ are shockers. You have the good considerate ones and the "I don't give a stuff about other road users" ones. People need to understand that unless increased driver training for all ages is implemented, that is car control, hazard identification and things like courtesy on the roads, our roads will be as dangerous as ever. The cars engine size, whether it be 1.3L or 6L, is largely irrelevant as you can still do the same deadly speeds in either, however the 6L one will generally be a safer car. So come on Helen, lets not pick on a minority so it seems like your doing something, when in reality large change is needed. Something similar to the alcohol campaign targeting all ages would be an ideal start...or would targeting the majority for once despite the benefits not happen because it might cost you votes?
Ron Harsant
No it will only make it harder for a young person that needs a car to get to work but once a young driver has a licence it should be harder to keep it.losing it for a breach of the conditions of there licence and there should be a resection on the size and power of the car being driven and heaver fines for not having a licence.
Kelvin Black
Young drivers should be restricted in their choice of vehicle. NO turbo or high power cars allowed. They should only be allowed to drive a standard, unmodified, low power car (a 'granny' car) while they are learning the road skills they need. Absolutely no modifications allowed to any part of the car (including exhaust system, wheels, tyres, suspension, etc)
Jayden Stone
i am stuned by ur intersting artical i think you guys are right this is what i think the test should be sat twice so that people will have had more expereance before they hit the road and i also think 15 is to young thats why all these young people are getting killed on the roads they should make the age 17 so you can start sitting it when you are 15 but dont hit the road until you are 17 now thats an idear
Gary (Pukekohe)
I personally think that young drivers already face a well thought out "graduated" system of tests before being allowed to drive with a full license. A normal teenager will have gained a reasonable level of driving experience before gaining the full freedom of the road. We should however consider a limit on the power of the vehicles newly qualified drivers are allowed to drive so that they cannot step directly into a turbo charged coffin at 18. On a wider note the penalties that both young & older drivers face for breaking the law are a joke, all drivers should face an automatic loss of license and a return to stage 1 in obtaining a license for serious offenses or repeated speeding. My partner & I drive a large 4WD purely for "crash insurance" so that our 5 children will walk away from any impact with a speed obsessed teenager who does not understand the risks. The financial & environmental impact this creates is not our 1st choice but we have little option if we wish to protect our children in the current NZ driving conditions.
Ray E
Tougher Rules, Definitely. The whole licensing standard is a laugh. I know of people that have had a learners license for 4 or more years. Teenagers today do not give a damn about laws, simply because they have no respect for anyone or anything. A provisional motorcycle license holder was forbidden from owning and riding any machine over 250cc. A learner car driver should be forbidden to drive any vehicle over 1600cc and totally forbidden to drive any turbo assisted vehicle until they have held a full license for a minimum of 18 months. For each offense a learner driver incurs an additional minimum of 6 months should be added to the length of their restricted license. As for restricted license holders being able to carry passengers this should be abolished. The sound systems and noisy exhausts fitted to the boy/girl racers cars should also be outlawed. Having a drivers license is a privilege not a God given right.
Kayne Neal Rayne
I think the we should put up the driving age so we dont have younger people on the roads because they are on the roads and they are crashing all the time and they are hurting other people as well sometimes even killing them,I also think it should be illegal for people to buy a car if they havent at least got their learners licence. And I think when people are going to get their licence they should look at their record because that often tells you what somebody is like and if they are people that get into allot of trouble they probably would be bad on the roads.
Wayne Rutledge
I strongly agree with third party insurance and restricting the cc rating of vehicles driven by young learner drivers and those on restricted licenses. Something must be done to curb the driver mentality of those behind the wheel. This needs to be done through some punitive measure. Restricting the ability of young drivers to buy high powered vehicles with finance loans and for no deposit may be an option for authorities to consider. We live on a wide street in Christchurch city and have daily episodes of Boy Racers and others using overly excessive speed. I wait for the inevitable crash or even serious injury of a cyclist or resident walking down the footpath.
Jennifer
Most definitely. Learner time should be increased as well as restricted. also possibly make learner tests harder.
Greg Sheehan
Here comes a whole lot of red tape again! Have a look at what works overseas and what makes the dining experience work rather just bundle everyone back inside. I like seeing life on the footpath.
Frank de Jong
A "new" driver should not be allowed to drive a car of more than 80kw and/or 150 nm.A "new" driver should be 18 or more but can be eligible for scooter transport from 15. There should be zero alcohol for restricted drivers and a reasonable curfew.
Helmut Letz
To give 15 year olds the right to drive is much to young. This can be seen every days on our streets. Science has discovered that young persons brain is under developed for appreciating real danger and just do not have the capacity to make the right decisions on the road in problematic situations. 18 as a minimum age for a drivers license as in most other countries would be appropriate.
Albert
I would like to see the following in place:
1) increase driving age to 17
2) ALL drivers driving under restriction to have "R" sign displayed on front and rear screen
3) restrict them to vehicles no larger than 1600cc
4) No modified/turbo charged cars
5) Zero alcohol level when driving
6) at least a 3rd party insurance cover (those who disagree to this may not want their assets protected, but I want mine protected)
7) Confiscate their vehicle on the spot for serious offences. if they can't put up money to pay fine within one month, sell off the vehicle to recover any fine.
8) If they flout the above twice within 2 years, cancel their driving licence, and they have to start from scratch to obtain a new licence.
Erin
I think the diminishing points system could be the way to go. If you loose your licence this way and continue to drive then big fines or even a spot of jail time might get it through everyones head that taking responsibility for your actions on the roads is not an optional choice, it is the law.
I have two teenage sons, one who wishes to learn to drive (16 y/o) and one who really sees no reason "To get a licence to kill" (18 y/o) when he can catch buses. Some of our kids watch the news I guess and see how many idiots are on the roads and its not just kids, its the drunks, the people that have cars to big for them and no idea how to drive them and dare I say..new immigrants who have no idea of the rules of the road.
Wendy
In my view the reason there are so many young drivers that breach their learners licence is because it is too tough and too expensive for them to get their full licence. My 22 year old son has found it very difficult financially to pay for his restricted - he has a partner to support, rent to pay and a new baby on the way. Personally I feel that they way the licence system is set up is just a money making scheme, why not raise the age to 17 and go back to the old way of only having to pay once to sit your licence!
Liz Shaw
I think the age that one can drive should be raised to 18 as I see several young men driving cars at least 70kms p/h in Auckland city every day. Having said that I do not think a license should expire if you do not sit your license within a certain timeframe. And I don't think that having a license and being able to pass a test is a good indicator of how well one can drive. Also what good is learning from someone else going to do when they may have developed bad driving habits, they are only going to pass those onto you. I am a 21 year old driver and last year I drove for 5 months on a learners license and I have no shame in it because I stuck to the limit, I did not go through red lights, I drove to the conditions, I only passed in safe places, knew the road code inside out and basically was a responsible driver. The point I'm trying to make is that there are 40 year olds out there who've had licenses for at least 20 years who aren't responsible.I think we need to have more traffic officers on the road to deal with dangerous drivers because that is where the problem lies, in the attitudes of the people behind the wheel, not in whether or not you have a license.
Gerry Sturkenboom
Do not make it harder to get licenses. Make the penalties more severe for blatant abuse. For example dangerous driving could bring penalties of license withdrawn for 5 years minimum and they need to go thru the full license procedure from scratch again.
Fiona Spencer
We have just gone through the process with our eldest daughter. I was amazed by our friends attitudes (the parents) towards letting their children drive friends and siblings around while their child was on a restricted license. We did not allow this, although it would have been much more convenient at times. Therefore it is not always the fault of the learner or restricted driver. I would like to see a "R" plate on the car (such as the "L" plate for a learner driver. I do not believe a ticker or a fine is a deterrent to most offenders - they don't care. If you are caught more than once breaking the rules, you photo should be published in the local paper - for all to see. If you do not obtain your full licence after 2 years of obtaining a restricted, you should be made to start the process again. I firmly believe 3rd party insurance should be part of car registration.
Duncan Lucas
Too many of us regard driving as a right, rather than a responsibility. The Drivers License should be harder to attain and harder to hang on to. We could start by having all applicants for a Car License sit and pass a Motorcycle Provisional License test, which might encourage more people onto two wheels, lessening congestion, and also might open the eyes of those who drive cars to the vulnerability of motorcyclists. I do not mind being retested for my Driving License(s) and I am pretty sure a profit-driven LTSA can't be averse to milking this cash cow either.
Bernhard
Tougher testing for sure. Raise the age limit above the Playstation age and you will start to see the results. Off the games straight into real life is a true joke in this country. Limit the size of the vehicle engine according to age and impose heavy tax on bigger cars for younger drivers according to experience as in Europe. Lift the learners age to 17 and license age to 18 and make the test 12 months long with day and night, wet and dry driving tests! That is a proper test!
Simon
It would seem that the established penalties (fines and eventual disqualification) are not immediate enough to cause drivers to consider the consequences of driving irresponsibly. Would it therefore not be appropriate to consider temporarily impounding the vehicle in more cases of dangerous driving - even a first offense if the situation warranted it - and permanent confiscation of the vehicle for a subsequent offense? If nothing else, parents would potentially reconsider lending the family vehicle to a young driver if there was a real possibility of the vehicle being impounded in the event of the child offending while driving it. This could also mean that groups of kids who currently pool together the funds to pay a traffic fine would also need to pool together the necessary funds to buy a replacement vehicle, a somewhat more expensive item.
The police could also then ensure that confiscated vehicles were either made road-legal or were disposed of, which would result in the numbers of dangerous vehicles on the road also being reduced.
Jon Scrivin
Society has deemed that a person is capable of making important, life-changing decisions once they reach the age of 18. This takes into account scientific evidence that until this age, people are not capable of making reasoned, mature decisions. Joining the armed forces, entering into a contract, voting for control of the country....all of these things require a person to be 18. Why should driving be any different? There are 2 fundamental issues to be addressed here. 1) The age at which a person can be deemed capable enough to safely operate a car 2) The process that a person should go through to obtain a license. Both of these require significant changes. The age at which a person becomes eligible for obtaining a learners license should be raised to 17. Any younger and a person's brain is simply not capable of dealing with driving, as proven by scientific tests. Once a learners license is obtained, the person should not be able to drive without another driver in the car, as now. They would remain on their learners for a minimum of 12 months. If they're caught violating any of the rules around ensuring another driver is present, their license is cancelled, and they remain ineligible to apply again for 3 months. The practical test should be a rigorous test of all aspects of driving. It should last for several hours. The problem is that New Zealanders consider driving to be a right, and fundamental entitlement. This is simply not the case. Being allowed to drive is a privilege, and it carries significant responsibilities.
Robert
After working and driving in four different countries, I find New Zealand roads to be incredibly frustrating. Allowing a 15year old child to drive a car is utter madness and extremely irresponsible. Kids in New Zealand have NO respect for the parents or authorities and that attitude carries across when they get behind the steering wheel of a car. They simply do not care! And saying that they act the same between the ages of 15 and 18 is not true. You need to stop comparing everything we do with the US! Hey are not perfect! My line of work takes me to many schools around New Zealand and I am shocked to see the lack of respect and discipline amongst New Zealand kids. The only thing a 15-year-old kid has on his or her mind, is to get drunk and show off in front of their friends. (in a car). I come from a country were we don't have these problems, and I am sure it is because we were only allowed to drive at the age of 17. If you want to solve this problem you need to up the age to at least 17 and teach New Zealand to respect each other especially their parents!
Louise Rose
I do not believe that raising the driving age is going to make much difference to road safety levels. There are idiot drivers at every age and you only need to look at the numbers of illegal and unlicensed drivers involved in accidents along with those under the age of 15. I know many 15/16 year olds that are currently learning to drive and they are all approaching it with maturity, responsibility and a great deal of caution. These young people are being properly trained by professionals and I have every faith in their abilities. Why should they (and indeed their parents who will no longer need to ferry them to after-school commitments) be penalised just for a few that would likely cause as much trouble whether the legal age is increased or not?
Megan
I am absolutely amazed that someone would think that compulsory 3rd party insurance will deal with the boy racers - no way will it do that! What would deal with the boy racers is sticking them in a 1300cc car! Also compulsory driver lessons, unless subsidised, will only encourage people to break the law because it is just too expensive. What I think is needed is proper driver training - the sort that teaches them how to handle a car and not a theory course which is a waste of time. These courses are available but only to full licence holders which is just plain ridiculous. These would also need to be made affordable so people could do them. So in short limit the car and give them the proper driver training.
John Chapman
Fifteen is simply too young to be in charge in what in reckless circumstances a lethal weapon. The minimum age requirement should, in the face of mounting evidence of immature behaviour in young drivers, be raised to seventeen. The government should also enact compulsory insurance for all drivers. Drivers would then have an interest in keeping their premiums down by driving more carefully. Young drivers would simply not be able to afford the premiums on high performance cars and be forced to either not drive or buy lower performance cars. If the government chooses the option of a legislative light touch the market place becomes the only option in improving road safety.
Frances
Drivers in general seem pretty bad in NZ, kids starting out get lessons from family members who over the years have got lazy & have formed bad habits - it only natural that kids are going to follow these. It should be that when you are old enough to drive you have your first lessons with a registered driving school/instructor, that way you'll be given the proper training and knowledge of any road rule changes. I also think the age should be raised to 17. I come from the UK and the older driving age of 17 makes a big difference, plus 9 out of 10 people get proper driving school training. It makes for safer roads, more educated drivers & most importantly, less deaths.
Andrew Asher
More rules do not make people better drivers. Learning to drive better is the only thing that does. When I was learning to drive at 15 I was lucky I got away with a 100 dumb things and never collected anyone or myself - but that is no way to learn. Like the UK we need an advanced drivers course passed before you get your license. Most drivers have no concept of the consequences of a panic stop or going through a corner to fast until the fatal moment. You need to understand the consequences of driving before you are allowed to drive regardless of age. If your license costs USUS$500 because you have to do a 2hour test on a skid pad and confidence course then so be it.
John Taylor
I agree licencing tests need to be toughened but will be a waste of time if police don't check the licence of all drivers they stop. Also the penalty for not carrying or having the wrong class of licence should be greatly increased, even to the point of car confiscation for repeated offenses.
John Robb
I can see no alternative than to raise the sge and put in place more stringent conditions. In the 60s when I sat my licence there was not the traffic on the roads and it took several miles to get a Mark 2 Zephyr up to 90mph. With todays high horsepower cars restrictions are essential and for these young plonkers who continuously offend their cars should
