KEY POINTS:
National would make all primary schools test pupils' reading, writing and maths ability, and require schools to tell parents how their children and their school rate against national benchmarks.
This forum debate has now closed. Here is a selection of your views on the topic.
Andrew Atkin
One problem with tests functioning as controlling-benchmarks is that they can create apparently "accelerated" development but at the possible price of an early ceiling. A good example is with the whole-word method of teaching kids to read. The whole-word method, for some kids, achieved faster immediate results in terms of what could be tested; however, the whole-word method ultimately proved to be a poor foundation for kids to learn to read from, as the kids ended up hitting an early ceiling (developmentally) later in life, resulting in poor reading ability in the long-term. Schoolteachers dont see this problem because they dont see the long-term results (important insight!). Imagine forcing a baby away from their crawling phase because they keep scoring zero on their walking test, because they cant even make it to their feet. Same thing; in forcing the baby to produce "results" prematurely you run the risk of being left with an adult who will only ever be able to walk like a poorly co-ordinated teenager, and only because their misinformed parents never let them develop properly from the beginning. Again, what looks like accelerated development may not be what it appears, and that is something we should think about before we religiously demand "results".
Dave Fredrickson
Yes. As a Secondary School teacher I am appalled at the poor level of numeracy and literacy that many students have when they arrive at College. We are expected to teach these students basic Maths and English, which should have been taught at Primary School. Testing will help to establish where the problems are and what we are dealing with.
Darren Sudlow
National really do want to live in the dark ages don't they. While schools gear up to take learning into the 21st century, National wants to take it back to the 1950s. As many have already pointed out, structured national testing will only inhibit real learning. You know the stuff, the thinking, the gathering, the processing, the creating - the doing. Schools are not perfect and more importantly, neither are parents. Trust your schools and your teachers - many of them do a fantastic job. Primary schooling is not where most of the change is needed - secondary is. And that is not in the form of antiquated Cambridge exams.
Paul
I can't figure out where all these schools are that don't test kids! I'm an intermediate school principal and the 10 or more primary schools that contribute children to our school all provide us with up to date information on children's literacy, maths and social progress. In short, we are testing children, we do know where children are at in relation to national norms, we USE the data to plan exciting learning and best of all we are committed to consulting with parents and reporting to them. This is normal primary school practice! I suggest that the Education Review Office needs to identify the few schools that aren't assessing and reporting properly and target them for help. Let the vast majority of schools get on with our work without another layer of unnecessary testing.
Gary Hemmings
Of course they should be tested. What is the purpose of learning if no one checks to see that it is working. My son spent 3 years at school before we moved to Christchurch and an alert teacher found that he could not read. He was our second son and got by, allowing his older brother to always answer on his behalf. Our whole Education system seems to be based on all care but no responsibility. It is time to wake up and smell the flowers. How long did it take and how much damage was done before Dr Benjamin Spock admitted that he was wrong?
Keith
I have been teaching in primary schools in France. I was shocked at first to find that testing was expected in each subject on a regular basis (about once per month, per subject). However, I soon came to see the value of such tests. Because of their frequency, they become routine, so much less scary for the students than a once-a-year huge exam. And the children actually look forward to them! They enjoy having something with 18/20 on it to take home and show Mum and Dad, and 'studying' beforehand to try to get a good mark. The students who have trouble tend to be those whose parents don't (or can't) help them with their homework. Furthermore, as opposed to once-a-year or twice-a-year testing, I have about 8 marks to look at by the end of the year - I have something concrete to show who is improving in each subject, who was probably just having a bad day, etc. In big classes it's easy for children to get 'lost', or for them to hide, but giving them tests is a big help in bringing small problems to your attention before they get the chance to be big problems.
Anne Collins
Our school moved our 2004 year 4s from 51 per cent reading at or above their chronological age to 69 per cent in 2006. This was done through best teaching practices being adopted using latest teaching research. We were in a programme supported by the ministry. Under National's policy we would have just been labelled as failures and given no Ministry help at all. Bulk funding would not help as expert help would not be shared by schools who under Key would be forced to compete against each other.
Barbara Sumner Burstyn
Comprehensive testing ala 'no child left behind' creates robotic drones. It forces teaches to teach to the test and children to telescope their learning to fit with test subjects.It overwhelmingly destroys curiosity as testing regimes grow to encompass all learning experiences and children limit their curiosity to subjects they must pass. The end result? - hollow automatons. Spend a day in an LA primary school to see how bad it really is. Interestingly - as America increasingly gears up to replicate an Asian type learning experience with wall to wall testing - Asia is decidedly swinging away - limiting study groups and camps and discouraging homework. The reason? Comprehensive testing serves those who value the automatic, the obedient, the compliant over those who value creativity, intuition and curiosity. And in a high-test regime who has time to challenge the dominant paradigm - too much homework to even consider protesting or taking a stand. A perfect world of obedient consumers.
Barrie
Do you really want your politicians telling you what your children should be taught, how they should be taught and what your teachers should say to you in reports? Can you really trust the tests to give accurate information that will be useful to parents? One nationally standardised test that I was recently required to administer to Year 8 children had no less than 9 points of inaccuracy and several examples of poorly structured instructions. The test was purported to give a comparison nationally and show progress over time. With such a tool, schools would be foolish to rely on the data provided, and parents unwittingly misled over their child's educational status. Having been teaching for over 40 years, I have learned to use tests for general guides in the delivery of the curriculum, but not to rely upon the specific accuracy.This political interference in the learning of your children should be viewed with scepticism at best and horror at the implications of the future of education. Those parents who show little faith in their children's teachers ought to learn the value of cooperation and collaboration in the learning process, join it and take great satisfaction at having been part of it, rather than oppose it because you think you could have done better at school only if... For me I would rather have a highly trained, highly educated, highly motivated professional directing my child's learning than a publicity-seeking, self-gratifying, power-hungry politician, using kids to further his/her own future, what ever the political persuasion of that person may be.
Andrew Atkin
Clarification: I have read John Keys speech. He acknowledges that most primary schools already test, but that the information is too often not getting back to the parents. Others argue that parents can access this information, but the fact of the matter is they dont for whatever reason. All National is really saying is that they want to be certain that objective and accurate tests are being used, and that the parents are getting this information delivered to them. Fair enough, because for far too many kids this is just not happening.
Carolyn Aish
Please all be aware! As a Kiwi living and teaching in England I've seen and heard what happens first hand when such testing is implemented. It means that teachers time is taken up making sure children pass tests - not necessarily teaching them/meeting individual needs. It means teachers weighed down by copious amounts of admin and thus with less time for preaparing lessons. It means children who get labelled very early on. Would you want your child labelled as a 'failure' that early on? Young children, especially boys, take their own time to develop. Please don't put them through formal testing on a national scale. It is a nonsense.
Elsa
Further to my letter of yesterday. After having read more comments it seems to me that very few writers have mentioned parents at home helping with what the teachers at school have put in place for the children with learning problems. It's all very well to blame schools and teachers but take a look at what's happening at home ... do the parents sit down with little Charlie and listen to his reading every night? Do they check his spelling nightly in preparation for the weekly test? Do they actively take time to help with homework with these kids? As a professional I have seen all too often the 'don't care' attitude as either or both parents are at work and don't have the time to spend with their child(ren). And then it becomes the teacher's fault that there is little or no progress made? Furthermore, if children are allowed to stay up until all hours of the night watching unseemly programmes or playing video games to the extent that they cannot concentrate at school the next day, is that also the teacher's fault? I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is the harsh reality of what is happening now, and has always happened over the years. Passing the buck is too easy. Teachers are dedicated people and each child is an individual with his/her own capacity for learning. Most children have no problems at all, and can take anything in their stride. They learn well, cooperate well, and participate in everything which the class/school offers. Others have marginal problems which, with a little help and cooperation can be sorted quite quickly. They too participate and contribute well, with good attitudes to learning. Sadly there are those kids with deeper problems, some of whom have the teacher aides, various funding resources, time out for extra reading or math, and a plethora of other helps which the classroom teacher has facilitated for them. These do help but it's a slow process and if there is little or no help from home then please - don't blame the teachers.
Ian Bruce
Teachers already spend quite a lot of time testing and maintaining children's achievement records. Politicians can insist that more of these results are revealed to parents. They can even provide some national benchmarks that may help the parents to interpret the results of such testing. However, the whole exercise will change nothing. Research has consistently told us that children from lower socio-economic backgrounds will do worse than those from wealthier homes. Politicians can insist on rating and measuring as much as they like, but unless society is prepared to do something about poverty, nothing will change in the relative achievement levels of children.
Hugh Mann
Of course we should know how successfully our children are being educated. The only opposition to such an idea will come from those employed in the education industry.
Cecelia
There is already a national curriculum with curriculum levels and exemplars. Teachers already assess children according to national levels.
Katrina Allen
This already happens in primary schools. What I would like to know is ..what happens to the results.? Theres too much emphasis on pushing students up every year and moving them on, even though many are illiterate, or they come from non English speaking countries and are automatically put in mainstream schools in accordance to their ages. Teachers are under resourced and over worked as it is and what all political parties (not just National) need to stop using our main key issues such as health and education as a way of scoring political points against each other..put their heads together and come up with a more viable solution as to why many of our students are failing.
Henry Werffeli
Yes, I do believe it is time to take responsibility and test our children at school. Westlake Boys are about to introduce a yearly graduation system. I am absolutely for it as we have to give our children the best start in life (education).
Jo
Children at Primary level are already tested. For all those people replying saying they thought it was happening and are shocked to find out it isn't! Are you people who have kids or grandkids? It really shows why our children are leaving primary unable to read, write and do basic arithmetic if we as parents are spending so little time finding out what is happening in our children's education. It appears from the comments that we hand our children over to teachers and then if our children fail it is the teaching methods used or the teachers! Well wake up people it's our fault if we don't know what is happening in our children's schools. Schools are under resourced as it is with teachers struggling to teach unruly children who have no discipline have not been taught manners and the very basics in human morals,parents fault not teachers. Where is the support from parents? I am not a teacher and am very aware of the parental support already shown by parents in many schools but by the comments here not enough parents are bothered! And once again John Key is grandstanding!
Thom Montgomery
Of course children should be tested - and it wouldn't hurt to test the teachers' competency and knowledge on an annual basis.
Elaine Gallagher
I think testing externally, such as through SATS exams here in the UK, is useful. The initial Key Stage 1 at age 7 is a good check up, and no pressure is applied. Applying limited resources is then more focused. The final school one, Key Stage 2 in Year 6 is much more important, and many parents want their children to do well. So often, they suddenly become involved in their children's education, only to find the basics are not as well instilled as they should be, and can go about remedying that. It's easy to say the education system should be better, but with 30 kids in a classroom, and the horrendous amount of administration work a teacher is expected to deliver, parents should be the key drivers of their children's education. The only downside is, of course, the many parents who find it difficult to extricate their own ambitions from their mere children, and for the parents who have none, their children fall by the wayside. I see both types of students in the counselling room. Education is about learning to love learning, because it's part of a healthy mind, grasping the concept between intrinsic rather than extrinsic rewards and success in a chosen occupation.
Kim
Sounds exactly like the disastrous "No Child Left Behind" programme in the USA. Since Bush was elected, classrooms in the States are nothing more than test prep centres. As US citizens struggle with an obesity and diabetes epidemic, physical education programmes in schools are being cut because the time needs to be spent learning to pass standardized tests. For the first time in US history, the new generation of American children is expected to have a shorter life span than their parents. Smart children are being "dumbed down" while resources are spent on teaching immigrant children to read and speak in English instead of Spanish so that these illiterate children can pass the new standardized tests. English speaking children are even being recruited to tutor these children during school hours instead of focusing on their own learning and lessons. When are people in NZ going to start seeing the new America for the disaster it is and not what we see in swanky TV programmes?
Colin Kendall
After a number of years of both of us teaching in England, my wife and I are utterly opposed to any form of national 'league tables' for test results. Testing is fine, providing it is used only for individual remediation, not competition. The testing regime in England is so pervasive that very narrow test results drive the system and teachers live in dread of a 'bad' ie low-ability class as national testing does not allow for the reality of low natural ability or the lack of English language skills. Don't let politicians wreck primary education with slick quick fixes. Spend more money on teacher training and teaching resources!
BLH
Don't let history repeat itself. Instead, read the about the history of "Proficiency" in NZ primary schools and why classes used to be called "Standards". Then think about the implications of mass testing. It didn't work then and it won't work now.
Andrew Johnston
Absolutely, primary school children should be tested. I was tested, but not I think with nationally prescribed tests at primary schools, two of them, in Auckland. I think it is likely the schools wrote their own tests, but I do not know. I do know that one did not get out of primary school without a Proficiency Certificate. Even children who 'played the wag' a lot had a better understanding of the rules of English, could spell and add up, knew more history and science, and most of all had some inkling that an enquiring mind was useful, than today's children. I am speaking of 12 year olds! However, we shall have to teach the teachers those fundamentals first, since we have had about four generations of teachers who do not know and therefore do not know what to teach. I speak from conviction and knowledge. I have a daughter now at university in New Zealand after high school in Hamilton, who just does not know how to speak nor write in correct English. I live in the US where it is worse: about 60 per cent of American children leave high school incapable doing the work available, many of them not equipped by their schooling with a base of knowledge and memory so that they can be taught what is necessary. About twenty years ago a New Zealand university professor told me he reckoned New Zealanders would end up with "a 1,000 word vocabulary and a chorus of grunts." An 1893 high school entrance examination (13 year olds!) was given to high school seniors here in the US, and to their teachers. The only changes were to the current affairs questions: it was designed to take a half hour.
Kiwi Lisa
Of course, primary school children should be tested, which I believe they are already. But perhaps it's more appropriate to test National's real intentions in this matter, if not also test all National's PMs to see how they afre in reading and writing correct English. If they so cannot pass the test they should be disallowed from sitting in Parliament themselves.
Nancy Sutthoff
I did want to share my views with you regarding this issue as we currently live in the US, Florida to be exact where there is the A++ plan plus the federal No Child Left Behind Act. I've three main points for everyone to consider, if you would. 1. Testing is fine as long as it doesn't become the be all and end all mark of progress. Here, where they have linked school funding to the scores on the tests, it has made a mess of things and we still have children who are not succeeding. 2. I remember, back in the dark ages when I was in school, that we did have testing. I also remember that it was handled very low key. Bring in your two pencils tomorrow as its test day. Done, Finished. Not much stress involved. Here, in the US, these kids are prepped for the test for months and put under an enormous amount of stress that they must pass the tests. Then, once testing is over, then they get back to what they are there to learn: Reading, Writing and Maths. The first six months of the school year are spent mostly prepping for the test. 3. As I am sure we all know, well rounded education includes physical education, music, art and sports. These are the exact things that have gone by the wayside here in the pursuit of "accountability" and "Performance" on the tests. This a shame really when one considers that music is math, art is creative (writing and literature, the ability to visualise) and sport is for the physical body (and mind and spirit). In summary, please learn from the mistakes here in the US and don't follow what "seems" to be the fad or fashion in education here. Its failing miserably and our children are suffering for it greatly (as is manifested by the obesity, etc problems) here in the US.
Donald Fraser
Here is a view from UK, where testing has been employed for a number of years: 'The final year at primary school has turned into a "boot camp" for pupils with 11-year-olds trained to pass national tests, a teachers' union leader will warn today. Teachers and their pupils who are "routemarched" to achieve the expected level four grade in the key stage two tests are left exhausted by the end of the year, Mary Bousted, general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, is due to say this afternoon. She will tell her union's annual conference in Bournemouth: "This is not education, this is training - and the consequences are catastrophic." .According to Dr Bousted, the cu rrent system of national tests is failing because statistics show that between a third to two-fifths of 11-year-olds receive a grade that reflects them being "coached and coaxed" into "test performance", not their true academic ability.' NZ should not go down the primary testing road.
Rajesh
In my view, children should be tested at school so that they could in themselves know where they stand and makes changes to improve on a continuous basis. This will also help parents decide and plan which their kids need assistance.
K Dagorne
Rated testing is going on in our schools and has been for years. I agree with testing , and it can be fun for all involved. In class tests , as well as national levels tests. Children (and Teachers) need to know that life is like that. Once outside school , you will be tested. To enter tertiary establishments, in the workplace , sports and even to get a mortgage. So lest get real and not have this rubbish PC "everyone is the same and everyone is a winner" idea. Its not real. To be completely honest , the biggest issues in our classrooms are not the children or testing; but the size of our classes and the skill of our teachers. Classes over 20 are absolutely crazy. No one should have to manage this. One on one teacher time is not happening with each child. I think that teachers should be tested as well. If our students are failing at Maths and Sciences , then maybe , just maybe this is a weakness in our teaching of these subjects ? So lets make some existing tests available to the parents , and test the teachers every three years too ! And here is a novel idea. How about a paid sabbatical for all teachers every 4 years. This would stop burnout and enable teachers to maybe do an exchange to another country , or just have a well earned break.
Stuart Christie
Despite the protests from educators, the evidence of significant numbers of primary school leavers with poor literacy and numeracy skills speaks for itself. The 'status quo' is that Primary Schools either ignore current test results and let them go to Secondary School 'as is', Or they don't test effectively, Or maybe the remedial work is ineffective. No question the ' bar' is too low. Let's start with a National test/ moderation scheme which should define which of the above is true and which will monitor the remedial programmes. Don't be put off by educators' protests, they always dislike transparency.
Tracey
I believe testing in primary schools should be considered paramount to childrens education. As a mother of 10 yr old dyslexic child I have found schools to be anything but helpful in regards to his learning difficulties, and myself having to hound each of my childs teachers each year , often be told there was no resources or funding available to help . At no stage did the school approached me to discuss how far behind my child was. It was only through outside courses and tutoring at my expensive have results started to be seen in the classroom.
All to often the teachers are well aware that children are behind yet there is reluctance to come forward and work with the parents toward a positive end goal.
Lance Beste
I am amazed! Do you actually have to ask 'Should children be tested at primary school?' It's common sense isn't it?. Every child needs to know the basics and at the same time it would be wise to check every child's ability to fit into society. Any support they need should be available at school before they get into trouble.
Ralph Barker
The schools are being tested not the children!
Ally
How about we look at the teachers first? A teacher friend of mine has a student teacher in his class in the last year of her training and he cant even write or use grammar properly. Tighten up the requirements for becoming a teacher as well as raising the pay packet, and you will see kids improving. It is also important to note that increasing class sizes in some areas (30+) simply doesn't give teachers enough time for extreme individual assessment.. more tests and parental feedback is so very simplistically superficial.. more letters/reports/results won't give parents any leverage. Let's get to the crux of the problem.
Stuart
Abolish the Ministry of Education, release the Government's iron grip on the education sector and let real educators and parents decide how to teach children.Then you'll see progress - parents will have choice and with the State's role and influence reduced, your question will be irrelevant.
Fiona Vos
I strongly agree with this policy for National to set new rules for schools. For a year and a half I have been going to my school requesting my child is not of the ability of the rest of the class pupils, yet the teachers and headmaster refuse to admit this. They teach at the level of that child in the class is what I am told. I eventually had to go to an educational physicologist to have him professionally assessed and was told that he is a year behind in reading and writing and if he does not have occupational therapy to "catch him up" (which I have to pay for)it will seriously affect his ongoing years at school which he may not overcome if it is not corrected now.
Louise
The best indicator of a child's reading success is how strong they are with phonoloigcal awareness skills. These skills are developmnetal, but in the country I work in, we screen these at the age of 5 and 6 and pull up all children who are weak and focus on these areas such as rhyme, syllables, sounding out words etc. Speech and language therapists are used to assess receptive and expressive language abilities. Children with poor language are more likely to struggle at school and these skills can be tested before they enter school. Poor language skills at an early age tie in with children who struggle with reading. Do all of these things at an early age and use early intervention. On average 10 per cent of all school children have a speech and language difficulty that will interfere with their schooling. Ask the therapists for help!
Jackie
Yes they should, but also in saying that they need to follow through with funding to get help for these kids. My child is about 3 years behind, yet there is nothing out there to help him. I got him privately assessed and was told he was dyslexic, along with a few other issues, so we pay for private tuition for him. There are so many kids falling through the system but what are the teachers suppose to do when classes are up to 31 children and there is no help for the ones that are underachieving. Pointless testing if there is no further help for them. I don't need to hear that yes my son is behind, I need to hear that they have strategies in place to help him get through the school system.
Jenny
In my experience with Primary schools, children are always tested each year however results are not given to the parents unless they are sought after. As the parent of a recently diagnosed dyslexic child I would like to see more money put into this area to help train our teachers in this field. I have been asking for 3 years now if my child is possibly dyslexic and been told - she's doing ok, she's just below average. In fact she is not ok or average but will be now that she is getting the help she needs at our expense. The teachers and support staff at our school are great, and I have no real gripes with any of them, they are simply too busy and have too many children in their classes to help children like her. Keep up the testing, make it available to all parents and lets have some money and training to help the struggling kids who without the proper support are counting off the days until they can leave school -before they are out of primary!
Madeleine Ware
As far as I knew, students are already tested (PAT, AssTle etc). It's what would be done with the results that interests me. Currently, students in NZ are allowed into subsequent years regardless of their actual abilities in relevant areas. At a certain age x, you will study level of the curriculum y. At the end of year x, you are assumed to have learnt what was in y to a reasonable level. If you haven't, you stil get moved on. Knowing that someone hasn't reached a certain level is only any good if you don't then try to force them to learn at a level higher than that of which they are capable, because that will mean they get even more behind. Similarly, why should someone languish around learning y, when they are clearly capable of z? If you're a parent and really want to know how your kid is doing, I suggest asking In my experience (at a secondary school) parents are largely uninterested to hear from teachers how students are doing. The other night I sat for 3 hours waiting for parents to come and find out how their darlings were doing, and only had 6 interested enough to come along and find out, and only that many because two were fellow teachers, also sitting around for hours with no-one visiting them. Perhaps you could even go so far as to ask your child! Talk to them, ask them to read to you or show you a piece of their writing, or do some maths. Help them with their homework and see how easily they can manage. If you have concerns, go back to the school with them. Just because they turned 5 does not mean you are absolved of all responsibility for your child's education.
Colin
What a lot of political nonsense .I could have have said worse.I am a 64 year old grandparent and we have had some input into our grandaughters primary education whilst our siblings work and she is regularly given results of the 3r' ie reading writing and arithmetic. Perhaps John Key needs to do some homework before trying to open up debates to score political points.
Karl
I would go further than what National is proposing. Sure, have the test at the end of primary education - Year 8, or the old Form Two. Set it to the requirements of what a student would need to understand prior to commencing high school at Year 9. And if they fail the test, make them repeat Year 8 until they pass it. Okay, we may end up with some fourteen or fifteen year olds still in primary school, but these kids cannot cope with the high school curriculum and sending them up is just sending them into a spiral of failure and the associated problems in behaviour
