KEY POINTS:
Here is an earlier selection of your stories:
Jess
I think a lot of Aucklanders are just lazy when it comes to saving. Most of them want the finer things in life but also want the nice house to go with it. My partner and I were earning about $80k between us and we scrimped and saved and went without nice things for a year and got ourselves $20k deposit for a house. By the time we had saved this, we had paid off all our HP's and loans so our financial position looked good. When we started looking at houses we then decided that we didn't want to buy in Auckland and moved up to Whangarei where we now own a nice little 1950's house which we are doing up and even though we earn less now, we still come out with more than what we had in Auckland. Auckland only costs more to live when you look at rental prices and travel costs. Everything else is the same. But since most Aucklanders like to complain about everything cause it's not free, then they'll continue to complain Auckland is too expensive. Why don't you all start making your lunch and make the odd sacrifice here and there, the other option is to move out of the big city as there are nicer places to live than Auckland. You're all as bad as the British when it comes to complaining. I'm an ex-Aucklander so I can say things like that. Just get over it guys.
Phil
Under normal market conditions this problem would 'self correct' Prices would fall until more could afford to buy. This isn't a normal market because the ruling elite have chosen to open thehousing market up to global conditions. No other small economy anywhere has been this foolish.Houses are brought by people with no entitlement to reside in NZ as an additional lever to get residence or just as an investment. Either way existing Kiwis are paying the cost of this. NZ has given away control of it's money supply. People don't give a tinker's cuss about 0.25 per cent rise in interest rates if it stands between them and their white picket fence.Any increased rate sufficient to discourage lenders would be so big that to use it would destroy the economy. No politician will do anything. They are at it too. 'Investing' at the expense of a battling family's security. That or too worried about losing votes of those that are.
Atul
A family having a combined income of around 90-100K can afford a house, provided they are willing to "Sacrifice" and "Prioritise". Agreed, this is not easy, it requires a firm and focused mind to stop yourself from buying that Car which you cannot afford and from going ahead for that overseas holiday which will land you in debt. Many people have done that and I would advice wannabe home buyers to be stingy for a few years, it's worth saving for a deposit and buying your own house. Even though renting is cheaper, it's very different from living in your own house. In our case, we give full credit to our landlord (we were renting for close to 3 years before we purchased our own house 2 years back), for being so obnoxious and greedy, that we were forced to consider buying our own house, the best thing that has happened to us!
Toby
Briefly saw an interview last night on CloseUp(?) with a woman who has 12 rental properties and was being held up as a shining example of saving and sacrifice. Had to turn it off. Gimme a break. She started accumulating assets 10 years ago. Hands up those who would like to go back 10 years and invest in the housing market with everything they had, knowing where it was going to go. Times have changed. Things are harder for those starting out. The average income vs average house price ratio has bloomed. The traffic volumes have increased. Living in the outer suburbs and commuting in to the CBD also doesn't achieve much, apart from waste your life, as the quality houses closer to town gain more in value and normal people slip further behind the growth curve.
Jon
The facts? Am I wrong? This issue is not about overpriced coffees and dinners out. It is about children and about family. Do we as a society want kids. It is also not about relocating to cheaper areas. I have kids at school who do activities - should I relocate them out to a forest somewhere - or are my kids greedy for wanting stability to go to school with their friends?It is also about society. Try reading this article
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2447701.ece
Teachers, nurses, police, bus drivers, etc etc do not earn enough to get a mortgage to live in Auckland today. Can just one person stick their hand up and honestly say they do? Do we want all the nurses to leave town for Invercargill? Is that honestly what society wants? Or are we going to pay them $80,000 plus so they might buy a house in Auckland? It is one or the other. If a nurse decides to have a coffee on the waterfront it is irrelevant. People who have actually in this forum quoted maths and figures - are any of them wrong - or is it instead those that already own houses that waffle on about the discipline they had years ago - and the lax attitude of youth today and their coffees? with no regard for the actual situation on the ground. The average median home is $430,000. It would take someone to earn in excess of $90,000 per annum to be able to obtain a mortgage to buy an average house. The facts are that the average man cannot afford the average house regardless of coffee, dinners out etc.
Megan
I agree with Kathy, it really comes down to priorities. Our priority was a house, so we put kids, cars, holidays etc... on hold and saved for a house - and only bought what we could afford. I don't have a student loan because I only studied part-time. Yes it took longer to get qualified, and my evenings were spent in classes and studying, but it meant that I could work full time and pay my fees and living expenses. I don't think everyone should do things my way - but I do think that my generation tend to want things now and not think of the consequences. (ie, use your student loan to pay for more than tuition like most of my friends and then wonder why you have an enormous debt....).
J
Yes housing prices have gone up, but so has everything else compared to the 70s. My Husband and I bought a house in December - we are both in our mid 20s and earn an okay wage. We saved for 3 1/2 years, we didnt go out, didnt buy top of the line clothes, stereos or new cars, and we didnt go on holiday. These are the sacrifices you need to make to buy a house. It seems that a lot of people these days dont know how to save long term for a goal that will help you reap rewards in the future. Owning your own home is about security and having the choice of doing what you wish to it, without someone elses approval.
V
So, the vice-president of the Property Investors Federation wants to lecture people about greed? That's a good one. Shouldn't this be a sideswipe piece rather than a front page story?
Chaye D
I agree with Luke regarding the student loan problem. A whole genereation is handicapped before they even enter the work market let alone the increased costs of everything. If its an issue of quality of life then I will take a $100 fishing weekend to some lovely part of the country than save it for a impossible dream of owning a house. What do you really own when your bank becomes your new landlord and the council and goverment just pimps you for money. If you did get a house then you can always make net gain from selling it and then maybe put it to some retirement fund or a bigger house, its just getting the first one is the problem for alot of Kiwis.
Kathy
I have to agree with the "expert". I do notice that my generation (20 - 35 yo) very much living in the moment lifestyle engrained to their mind. Just go outside and see what the people has. Nice car, very much into cafe lifestyle, spending too much on a non necessity goods. Other will try to blame on student loan debt. But if you really want to research the majority of the student loan repayer, will only meet the minimum. Which means the left over from their salary, still a lot. Not to mention the culture of borrowing is very big. Dont have money, well... lets go and get the money from the money lenders. I have to say, if only you want to focus and scrimp, you will be able to get your foot into your first home, which may be wont be your dream home nor it would be on your first choice of suburb. But you will be able to get a nice 2 bedroom flat on a row of multiple flat and a not too bad suburb in West Auckland. Stop spending money on frivolous goods, save and focus. Start cooking your food at home rather then take away, start taking pack lunch to work rather then keep buying food from cafe. And when you get tempted to spend your money, stop and think, will I die if I dont buy this goods. Will I get fired from my job if I dont buy this goods. If the answer to the 2 questions are no, then move along and forget about it.
Sunshine
I am on minimum wage. I live frugally on baked beans and op shop clothing, but I spend over two-thirds of my income on rent to live in a quiet "safe area". In the past I have had to put up with not just the "neighbours from hell" but flatmates who stole & turns out to have made other illegal lifestyle choices, so people who go on about moving to a less desirable area to afford a house are the real dreamers. I can not afford a car, let alone an apartment, but personal safety has to come before anything else. As for moving to the outskirts...guess what? So has everyone else - that's why we have such bad traffic on the roads every "rush hour".
J.Waterman
I think Andrew King is living in la-la land. When you're standing in your bathtub full of money, it's very easy to hand out advice about "what other people should do". It all sounds very respectable and doesn't reveal the other side of the coin - that real estate agents are greedy, opportunistic parasites.
Andy
The problem isn't with housing affordability, it's with the people that say they can't afford to buy a house. Firstly - cut all non necessities out of your life. Do you really need Sky TV, a nice car, that bottle of wine, expensive presents for your mate's baby shower, a coffee every morning at work, the plasma TV and home entertainment system, the Ipod etc etc? You would have gotten along fine without this stuff 15 years ago, you can now as well. Secondly, don't be snobby about where you want to live. This may mean, (shock horror) about moving to a smaller town out of Auckland. Your first job probably wasn't that special, neither does your house need to be.
I'm 28, earn about 70,000 a year in a salary job, drive a 1987 car, don't have any of the other luxuries listed above, and own three student flats in Dunedin. It's not that difficult.
Henk
So many people refuse to buy in areas they don't consider 'good enough' so miss out on good homes. We found a four bedroom, two lounge home with polished floors close to bus and train stations and with a great local school, for only $220,000 four years ago. Not the greatest street in the world but we love our home and community a lot now. We've had one break-in in four years and that was only to the sleep-out back of the garage.My friend is single, no dependents, earns over $40,000 and pays $100 per week for food, power, rent - the lot! Yet he spends all the rest on new appliances, changes his vehicle every year and then complains he could never save enough even for a home deposit. Some of these people need a reality check.
Laurence
I left NZ for Oz back in 1992 to get a job. Since then the increase in wages hasn't kept up with house prices in both countries. I live in Brisbane and have seen house prices double (at least) in the last 5 years. This isn't natural and is the result of immigration from intersate and overseas, along with easy access to finance for existing home owners.There's no easy answers but limiting the number of properties able to be owned and reducing the red tape and time frames for council approvals is a start. We Kiwis have to look after ourselves first; in South Korea foreigners can't own property, maybe we should take a leaf out of their book?
Bruno
It makes me laugh when "property investors" tell non-homeowners that houses are still affordable. It's the property-investors who are entirely responsible for the over-inflated house prices in NZ. Get off your high-horse and take some responsibility for preventing our children from owning a home. Hope you all choke on your champagne.
Grant
Well, Mr King is right in a way, but also he is a bit arrogant to put it that way. I am single and now on 90K per annum, which is well above average. I flatted and saved for 6 years and have been able to afford a 2 bedroom apartment in Ponsonby. The alternative was a cheap home with land in, say, Glenfield. The mortgage, rates etc. all take up about one half of my after-tax income, so, although my income may make me look well off compared to others, I would still not be in a position to raise a family comfortably after paying for a home. People can always try harder to save, but the results for home-buying in Auckland are tough for all of us who are trying to find a way in, now matter how good we are at saving.
Annette
My story. Bought my first modest home at 20yrs, sold that, bought 2nd home 11yrs later in a suburb that is gentrifying. Mortgage and other payments have always been less than rent. Being a single mother with 4 children , 3 with disabilities and on a $246 a week DPB benefit for years because I keep getting cancer and my childrens demands, it has been hard at times. To all those my age now bleating that you cant afford a house and children etc. What have you been doing with your wages for the last 20 years??? Make some sacrifices like your 18yr Grandparents did when they had to get married. Second hand furniture, modest 2 bedroom first home, no booze or fancy clothes, hand washing and healthy stews and sandwiches.Long walks and swimming at the beach.Oh and using the old car their parents owned and your parents were conceived in!
Sam
I can't believe some of the whining going on here... yes houses are expensive and as long as I've been looking at the market they always have been, but in order to afford something pricey you've got to sacrifice and save. At the age of 22 when all my friends were going on OEs and buying new cars I was saving and not spending much, after about a year and a half of saving pretty much all my meagre $40k income, I bought at $250k house. Now it wasn't a big as I wanted, or as new, but it was entry into the market. House prices have roughly doubled since I bought 9 years ago (house now has a QV of $460 with a market rate of about $520k) so if (as a first home buyer) my income had doubled to $80k I should still be able to buy in the market. I can't see how all these people on $80k-$100k say they can't afford a house, have you been saving? are you going out 3 nights a week for dinner? Look at your outgoings, there's always areas to save. I'm now 32, and ten years later I'll be making the final payment in June to pay off my house fully - and only once in those 10 years did my income ever reach $100k. People need to go and see a financial planner if they're on good incomes and think they can't afford a house... it's hard but it's not impossible.
Miss M.
I moved from Auckland to Wellington a year and a half ago, partly so that I could buy a place to live. I managed to do so in late August of 2006. Since then, housing prices have risen so much throughout the Wellington area that, if I was starting from scratch again, I couldn't do it a second time. I would be priced out of my modest Hutt Valley neighborhood.Five years ago, after a divorce, I had a 3-digit bank balance. To put my deposit together, I did several things. I kept my credit record clean. I was very fortunate that my landlady didn't raise my own rent for four years. I didn't buy a lot of "fun" things - to this day I don't own an iPod, a laptop computer, or a television set. Then, I was a housesitter for a year, thanks to some helpful friends, a referral from my former landlady, and a housesitting agency. During this time I lived in six different places, in an unsettled existence. I used the money I wasn't paying in rent to boost my deposit savings. Finally, as I noted, I moved from Auckland to Wellington. Even after all of that, I would have been very challenged to afford a unit or cottage in Auckland, and I was at the low end of the market in Wellington in winter of 2006.
I am single and don't have children, which gave me the lifestyle flexibility to be mobile and to move, and extra money to save up. What if someone is in a family with children to care for, or if they have strong personal ties to the Auckland area? These are the folks that Auckland needs, to stay a healthy, viable place where people enjoy living.
NLJ
I bought a 2 bedroom unit in Upper Hutt in 1990. The interest rate at that time was 15¾ per cent - I paid $74,000 for it. Last month I paid $9,000 to modernise the bathroom. My place is now worth $160,000. If I sold it now even in Upper Hutt im looking at paying $250,000 plus - im working (contract) earning over $40k pa but who wants to take out an $100k mortgage? Peter Why is it necessary to own a house? Why go through all that scrimping and saving when you can enjoy life - not just the last 5 years after you pay your mortgage off. I'm 35 and if I got hit by a bus tomorrow I'd die happy knowing I've experienced most of the things that I want to in this life. More than can be said for a lot of 50 year olds who've spent their adult lives paying off mortgages.
Simon Stewart
What a load of rubbish, yes house prices are expensive but people need to be realistic about where they live. My wife and I decided three years ago that we would have to buy in an area that may not be classed as a "top" area, however the people in our neighbourhood are extreamly friendly, we have over 900M2 of section for our kids and a four bedroom house to boot. The strange thing is my wife stays at home and looks after the kids and I work, and yes we still can afford our coffee! People need to understand that no they wont be able to live in Epson, but yes there are affordable houses available!
Thilal
OK, if you stop drinking coffee and buying cars (after all how many "would be" first home buyers buying new cars?) pronto…...you are in a new house??? Mr. King must be joking! This problem is not as simple as that. Its not only one of the savings, but one of the skyrocketing prices too!! The Glenfield house which he quotes for 350,000 'was' 175,000 in year 2000!! – an increase of twofold, just in six years. Now what is the average citizen's increment of income during that period? From $10 to 11.25 per hour!! This is 100 per cent against 12.5 per cent matching!! So Mr. King, even if I stopped drinking plain, simple, and dear 'water' from today, I wouldn't be able to buy my first house under these prices! The real problem is the diminishing buildable land stock, whereas the main increase over the years is not on the construction cost but the land prices. This is simple the supply demand logic and government need to immediately take legislation to relax RMA regulations to release more lands. NZ has only 2 per cent urbanized lands and it is crazy to lock up more than 90 per cent of lands as 'rural' when half of its population are 'homeless'!! The moment one is allowed to put up a house on a 400 sq.ft block in Dairy Flat or Silverdale; that Glenfield house Mr. King quoted for 350,000 will immediately drop to 200,000.
Paul H
There is a simple measure that will help the housing market. It's called capital gains tax. But no government will have the guts to implement this simple solution as it will lose votes amongst all the Remuera-ites. In the meantime I'll keep praying for a housing market crash.
Wayne
After reading the book "Buying a Home Isn't Everything" I am convinced that renting is the way to go, as long as it's combined with regular saving. People say rent is dead money, but so is mortgage interest, house repairs, insurance, rates etc etc. We have crunched the numbers and have found that renting will allow us to save more for our retirement and our investments are properly diversified, not all lumped into one house. I really recommend this book to anyone who is thinking about buying a house. Renting is not at all bad (and you can still have your coffee!)
Philip
Though our household income is more than 70000 we know we cannot afford a house in the eastern suburb we are living. In the past two years the prices in our suburb have just spiralled. We are looking for a house in some other suburbs where it is cheaper. We know we have to make some compromises. The income tax rates are higher and people cannot save enough.The government should income tax rates, lower the interest rates for first home buyers as well reducing the owners equity if it wants more people to own houses.
Anon
I agree with ms Maynards comment. The increase in the price of houses in Auckland is founded on greed. I have been looking in the market for about a year and when prices were $300,000.00, we could afford it. Now a three bedroom sets at $500,000.00. It is absolutely rediculous. Prices have been increasing between $10,000.00 and $20,000.00 each month, when you look at the property press. Estate Agents and the vendors are the true winners. Is the evaluation of houses based on the market demand or the actual construction, chattels,age and land size. I think it is a total ripe off. The increasing home loan rate is off no help to first home buyers like us.
Steve Scott
I don't drink coffee and we own a Mazda Astina that we purchased for $1000 three years ago. We both have student loans which total $65 K. With a combined income of $90K we just break even. Here's why: $220 per week in childcare. $375 per week in Rent. $250 per week in groceries – and then there's power, after school care for my other son, telephone and water bills, insurance and countless other expenses. Oh, and we earn too much for the working for families. Your correspondent lives in a fairly tale world. I live with the grim financial reality of the real world.
Mike
I left school at 17 (with no money) and did a four year apprenticship, saving like crazy by working every weekend I could. This let me purchase my first home in Glenfield at 21 for $93k in 1984. Interest rates were 23 per cent. I had flatmates and more overtime for the next few years as my wages only covered interest payments and not my living expenses. I am now 40 and by living prudently my wonderful (and like minded wife) and I now have a mortgage free house in Takapuna (that we will not 'upgrade' any further)and some other cash investments. Now only one of us needs to work and we can enjoy raising our two boys. This is not gloating, it just shows how it is possible to slowly build wealth over time with some graft and consistent application. For what its worth, my advice to people starting out would be to ignore university unless Mum and Dad can pay for it. Rather, it's better to undertake any kind of vocational training e.g. nursing of trades as soon as you leave school. This allows you to get cash flow at the earliest possible age to buy a first home before you want a family and gives you the base skills to start your own business. University can wait till later, if you need it. Oh, yes, you do need to forgo the Contiki trips, plasma tv, and the $5 coffees.
Jim Haldane
I find it very funny that he says, people want every thing now. His profession I find are the worst, they encourage the public to buy now and worry later. They also are amongst the least trust worthy, just below lawyers in my book. Last weekend I was flicking through the estate adds in the paper and was appalled at the blatant lies and exaggerations they were making re the properties they were advertising. What a bunch of sharks, put them all in a boat and take them out to sea and sink it. They should be at home with all the other bottom feeders.
Joe
The studies are one dimensional!! If you want to increase the amount of land available for housing your traffic problems will escalate big time!! Wake up - Auckland is no longer a small city. Housing in future will need to be medium to high density. Ie. London, New York and even Sydney. If you want to own a quarter acre with a house move to the South Island!
K
I am an Aklndr however proud owner of two houses in the mighty Waikato region. My partner and I are late 20s and earn a modest package each. We absolutely refuse to own and live in our own home in the Aklnd area. It is too expensive and quite frankly, we are saving more money having our rental properties whilst also paying rent. Regardless of what my partner and I earn, I agree that people need to stop complaining. It's called inflation and if you are serious to own in N.Z, then do what we all did and get back to good old saving!
L
Interesting comments people have made. Have to disagree with those that think we need to get over ourselves if we earn a decent salary. My husband & I both studied hard to ensure we would be able to get decently paid employment. We have a house/mortgage but it is not easy. We don't buy much (don't have the money), have 1 car between us & do not buy "coffees" or other such frivilous items. We have the basics & know we are lucky to have our own home. Therefore I can't understand why people think 'people like us' should cut back & stop feeling hard done by. It is hard.
Matt
Why is it so absolutely essential to own a house? Yes its wonderful to have your own place, enjoy the security and non-financial benefits, but housing as an asset class is simply overvalued. There are no financial gains to be made by owning one in the current environment, relative to renting. If we could rent a Ferrari for 20c a day then we all would, why would anyone buy them. People need to stop wanting to own a home 'at any cost', and exploit the fact that the housing market is so imbalanced by renting. Prices will normalise and ownership may become logical again someday, until then who cares, renting is cheap as chips. My girlfriend and I are late 20's with a combined income north do 300k, and we rent because it makes the most financial sense, despite being able to buy if we wanted. If houses remain overvalued, we'll just rent forever, pocket the difference, and invest it elsewhere.
Home Owner
I consider myself lucky to have been able to buy a house in Auckland 7 years ago when the prices were more reasonable. But having said that, we did work really hard and "go without" for a year before that, trying to save up our deposit. I do think that people need to take a good look at their spending habits.There are many things people can give up for a short period of time (1-2 years) in order to save up a decent deposit - once you have that, your mortgage repayments should be reasonable and nothing like 80 per cent of your income. The reason people have crippling repayments is because they have borrowed 95 per cent or even 100 per cent of the house's value - bad idea.
These are the types of "luxuries" people need to consider giving up so they can save: cell phone plans (use a prepay phone, and only use it for emergencies, people lived without cell phones for centuries) going out for dinner/lunch/brunch; going out to the movies (why not invite a few friends over and rent a DVD, split the cost between you and it will only cost a dollar or two!); buying new clothes ; daily/weekly coffee at a café; broadband internet; SKY television; new cars or even cars less than 5 years old; flash stereos and TVs; buying lunches at work; alcohol and cigarettes; Lotto tickets; holidays. Does that sound excessive? I don't think so. Anybody can live without that stuff for a year in order to save up for a house. If you say you can't, then you don't want it badly enough. Bottom line.
H C Rogers
What Property Investors Federation vice-president Andrew King is so obviously ignoring are two major factors which determine whether or not people buy a house in Auckland: (1) The amount of hours people are expected to work by their employers who pay them $70,000 pa - the 9:00am to 5:00pm working day simply does not exist anymore; and (2) The amount of time added to those hours (and money they would need to spend) sitting on a bus or a train or in their car after finishing work just to get home to "Te Atatu, Glenfield, Panmure or Pukekohe" thanks to Auckland's ridiculously constructed roads and motorway joke. Is it any wonder Aucklanders would rather rent a home closer to where they work in order for them to actually see and spend time with their families - just like Helen Clark expects them to so that their child doesn't go "off the rails"?! Asking people to buy in "non trendy" areas, do the house up and sell is giving people false hope that they will turn a profit or even find somone to buy their house when it comes time to sell. Auckland's "pioneers" never "built" Auckland to be home to over 1 million people and we are all now paying the price for that.
John
I find some wonderful irony in Mr King's comments. Doesn't the fact that we have a "Property Investors Federation" tell us something is wrong in the first place? Go buy your 10th house mate and stop telling us how much better it was in your day. We shouldn't have to sacrifice living an ok life simply to live in Otahuhu. I'd love to know how many times he has recommended to his mates at the Federation to buy in Otahuhu, Glenfield etc and while he is at it, try going back to University, borrow $80K to get a degree that gives him chance to get a job that pays $30k a year and then try to get a foot on the ladder. And it annoys me when these "successful businessman" piously tell us what we are doing wrong. Why not actually listen to what we are saying and respect our views. We aren't making things up.
Jan
Agree with the leading comments in your article. People fritter their discretionary income on trivia - expensive and otherwise. As you say now, now, now...they are consumed with their image of the moment.If they cut back on spending for immediate gratification they will gradually/quickly have a choice re investing in their future. Their "fancy" toys that are necessary for their egos today won't help them in ten - twenty years time. The banking & finance industry deliberately cultivates the above climate with incessant ads for loans. People don't seem to understand the cost of interest . The NZ education system hardly provides for sensible economics training for the parents of the children, which is where they learn their bad habits from in the first place!
Kelvin
I keep reading about Aucklanders being advised to buy in Gore or Invercargill. Has there been a new bullet train built in NZ that runs from Down South to Auckland and back every day? Because if there hasn't, then the commute every day must being horrendous. Just another point. How do you think the locals down in Invercargill feel when cashed up Aucklanders go down there buying up properties for more than what they are worth? Think about the young people down there trying to buy their first home, only to be outbid by some "cashed up foreigner" who doesn't intend to live down there, but use the income to fund their living in Auckland....
Stan
One of the options: people will leave to other countries where there no such ridiculous highly priced of such a low quality houses.
Kate
I am sick of being told I am not trying hard enough! I don't eat out, smoke, drink, or have a coffee out more than once a week. My last car cost under $7000 and I have had it five years now. I have not been on a holiday overseas in five years either. I am a secondary teacher with a student loan, earning $51,000. I am being asked to move by my landlord as they need to live in the house, at yet another cost to me. As one of many people who have been hit with compunding interest from the day we started studying, I owe $70,000 on my loan, having only borrowed $55,000 and having paid off almost 20,000 over the last 5 years. If I had no student loan, I would not only have a bigger house deposit, but more income, allowing me to buy a basic unit or starter home in a poorer area. As it