KEY POINTS:
The debate continues:
Kevin
I travelled a lot around the world and the remarks by the majority of New Zealanders in this thread is, unfortunately, very typical. There is not a more insecure group of people on the planet.
Lewis B. Sckolnick
The nice thing going for all of you folks living in other countries is that you do not have to live here with the likes of us and we are eternally grateful for that but it seems as though many of you would like to come here anyway at the drop of a hat. There was more than 20,000 rounds of ammo in my house when I was in high school and most of it was in my closet. There were more guns than you would ever believe. We had our own private in house pistol range. We made our own ammo. We call it America. Of course I voted for President Bush, was there a choice?
Kayla
These killings in America are indeed appalling and this is something America will never kick. But this also just proves that the people are in fact just numbers and when something goes wrong with an individual its not really picked up until its too late. Banning guns will do nothing to stop killings as people will just find other weapons. Maybe America needs to look at a updated health system to help all those who show signs/traits. Or maybe education to those people who bully these people and push them over the edge.
David
I wish more people in the US could read these posts so they would not be inclined to get on an airplane for 13 hours to spend their money in NZ. Most Americans think the Kiwis are loveable, cuddly, cousins and would be shocked at the ravings posted here.
JC
The obvious motive for this shooting is evil influence of New Zealand on Asian immigrants. Sounds silly, doesn't it? This idea is no sillier than blaming this terrible tragedy on guns or bullies or chicken salad. This even occurred because of evil, which is something people no longer want to discuss. Japan has banned all firearms since WWII and gun crimes are on the rise there, as they are in the UK because only the criminals have guns. America has become a crumbling bastion of nonsense, because we refuse to address the issue of evil. If this shooter had survived, there would be 300 defence lawyers lined up to represent him in order to get their name and their picture on the telly. In a sense, we are to blame for this shooting because of our refusal to address the evil and wrongs in our society including abortion, teaching people that they come from monkeys, and that even though the Constitution states that "all men are created equal" some people are more equal than others. All this said, non-Americans shouldn't throw stones at the glass houses of others, when theirs is see-through also. Instead of worrying about whether the world is getting hotter, why don't we start having conferences on why the world is getting meaner?
William
I can't believe people are talking more about the gun massacre. How about 200 hundred people that died in Baghdad today? American government is responsible for all these deaths. The gun policy, I am the god attitude and their bad foreign policy. The government is to blame.
John
Would all you Kiwis, who want to ban guns in the US, feel better if the Virginia Tech shooter killed the innocent students by blowing him-self up using a home made IED (like in Iraq) rather than a gun? Your distorted view of life in the US is any indication of what you are reading in your local papers, then you are being brain washed by your lefty media. There are much more home break-ins in NZ than here in the US. Now you might wonder how come the murder numbers are very high in the US. 95 per cent of the gun related murder in the US is targeted between gangs in few pockets of this vast country and it hardly affects the normal people. That's why people don't scream and shout about the high murder rate. When innocent people get killed, it is big news and the police go after the killers in a big way. Random murder and theft in any major US city is much lower than Europe or Australia. Just compare London and Paris to LA or NY. You will only believe it if you lived and experienced how liberating it is to live in your own house and hardly worry about locking the door or getting robbed. We will never tell you how to run your country, and don't open your big mouths before you educate your selves better.
W Read
Virginia Tech was a gun-ban zone in a right-to-carry state. If any armed students had been in the classroom the tragedy would have been aborted. There will always be legitimate reasons to fear living life as a human being. There is nothing wrong with a healthy survival instinct. Only slaves are ever disarmed by their masters--always and forever. Your smug anti-fear editorial was frightening and distasteful. There is much to legitimately criticize about the US but the right to bear arms is just about the only civil right still recognized in that country.
Leon Richard, MSPT
As a former police officer, who returned to school to study to be a physical therapist. I don't know much about NZ, and I suspect almost as much as the average "kiwi" knows about America. NZ looks like a beautiful country, and most of the people appear to be decent sorts. Some of what I am reading here raises doubts about some of them, but that's not a reflection on all either.If we cannot prevent four jet airliners from being flown into three buildings and a field, killing thousands, with all the laws, requirements, policies, background checks, and licenses required to fly how on earth could we ever hope to prevent these things from being done with something that you can put in your pocket and is so common already? A madman cannot be denied his mayhem. This man lied on the forms he filled out to purchase the firearms. The man violated school policy by bringing the firearms onto campus. Interestingly, the school reiterated the policy recently when they disciplined another student for bringing a gun to school. He had a permit to carry a concealed weapon issued by the state of Virginia to him. He applied for the permit, and because their background check revealed no disqualifying history it was issued. The question can be posed. Given that a madman won't be deterred by policies and laws.
Given that we cannot predict who among us, as so rarely happens but it does, will become a madman. Shouldn't we allow those who care enough to do so, to get a permit and be able to defend themselves and their fellows from these madmen? Should we be arguing about what will not happen, strict gun control of the nature seen in England, Australia, or New Zealand? Or, should we be working up a plan for better mental health care, education, anger management classes, economic development, and improvement in the general welfare of our society? 80 million people in the US own somewhere between 500 million and a billion firearms. We're not giving them up. I fear the second American Revolution could well be over the same issue as the first. Except this time the enemy truly is us. It won't be England coming to seize the arms, it would be the Liberal Left Wing, and it's not going to go so well for anybody. They'd turn this country into Bosnia-Herzagovina overnight. We need to turn to things that we can agree on, and that will work. Gun control might well reduce the number of guns in law abiding and sane hands. It will never reduce the number of maniacs, or the guns they will hold in their hands.
Fiona
I know there are many people in the world for guns - but how many people can be killed by one man and a knife?
Michael
I do understand the argument from both sides, and as a Kiwi I do know that NZ has problems that we need to deal with as well. However, this does not change the fact that this tragedy could have been prevented if the shooter had no place to buy guns! Its simple, no place to buy guys = no guns to shoot with. You Americans also argue saying that guns are for protection... Why do you resolve to gun violence for everything? Your media is to blame, I have watched American news plenty of times and let me tell you, 80 per cent of the reporting is about people killing people and absolute negative material, fear got the best of you all. Since every single criminal has access to a gun then you need to protect your families with guns too right? But what if they didn't? Why would there be a need to carry guns? Guns are made to kill, and guess what? Because you let just about anyone buy a gun, tragedies like this is ought to happen.
Daniel Goldwater
NZ has had its fair share of mass murders and shocking gun events these in a country which has no "gun issue". I tend to agree with Mark Steyn that we as 21st citizens of the privileged world have had our ability of self defence/ independence eroded by our PC governments to such a shocking level that we now expect our Governments to solve/ prevent/ every potential issue that we may be confronted with. In short we can no longer and dont know how to protect ourselves. Authorities such as police and courts have become so hamstrung with red tape, regulation and PC nonsense that if a potential threat were to be identified it is doubtful that a safe and happy ending would be the result. In the context of VT most of those students were unable to react to the situation and consequently as we seem to do in our societies look for someone or something to blame, usually an authority of some kind. Blame the gun laws, thats an easy one. Blame the Police, Blame the American culture. I agree with the responses of many Americans in Your Views. New Zealanders have just become knee jerk anti- Americans.
Ian Morine
America's biggest problem by far, is it's refusal to learn from past mistakes - how can any person or country grow if you don't learn from your mistakes. Their administrations past and present continue to have this desire to interfere in other countries affairs, with consequences like 9/11 and goodness only knows what the eventual consequences of the Iraqi invasion will be for the American people. Only future events will tell us that. One of your readers quoted the Ten Commandments, I note that he didn't mentioned the one that says "thou shalt not kill" or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Both of these have huge significance to past and present events inside and outside American boarders. Some readers have also mentioned American freedoms, how many of those have disappeared with the Patriot Act and other "reforms" since 9/11 I wonder - in comparison to other countries that don't align themselves to American foreign policy? We have far more freedoms here and will continue to have these as long as NZ's foreign policy forbids us from illegally or immorally interfering in other countries affairs. My message to you oversensitive Americans: - learn from your mistakes, you will go absolutely nowhere and gain nothing until you do!
Rehana
One American wrote that he/she wished that something like the Virginia shooting would happen in NZ, but 10 times worse. I am a Kiwi, and I have American relatives and friends. The laws of USA are theirs, and the laws of NZ are ours. However, both countries have a right to freedom of speech. Americans bashed the Kiwis on these pages only because some from NZ mentioned that USA's gun laws are too relaxed. So what. USA glorifies itself in freedom of speech. Ok., so how come you can't respect other people's freedom of speech. Whether one says to control gun sales or not is only one's opinion. NZ appreciates any assistance or trade with USA, but where freedom of speech is concerned, I do think that people who react with hatred, need to practice what they preach. If you have a right to freedom of speech, so do we. No one deserves to be a victim of any tragedy, but when opinions are plastered across by media, you have to look at the good and the bad. People take the good comments with a smile, but when criticism comes, some cannot handle it.I am sorry that people had to die at the hands of mentally unstable person, but there is no need to bash each other for voicing opinions. An opinion is just that, an opinion. Just like the American (noted above) said, that if Kiwis didn't like Americans, we should stop buying their music, vidoes etc. Well if you are so upset, then stop selling your music, videos to NZ. You see, both countries lose out when hostilities dominate the play.
Paul C
Perhaps a major loophole is within the screening process of potential weapon buyers. Does the US screening process include access to ones medical record as to whether there exists any family history of mental illness, or whether the person in question has a record of any such visitation to therapists or the like.Maybe a compulsory polygraph test would highlight the true ambition of a potential weapon buyer.
Ferdie
Yes, its true that any deranged person will find ways and means to have a gun - that no matter what gun control laws there are, there will always be a way to get guns, that people kill people not guns, etc. But the point is - why make it easy to own/buy a gun?
Elaine K
This is a very sad event and it should not have happened. One mental student and easy access to guns equals events such as the Virginia Tech shootings. Kiwis are quick to point the finger and blame the Americans for such a tragedy. I'm a dual New Zealand/American and I am ashamed that most kiwis have such a warped impression of the United States.
Aarron
It's sad to see (some) Americans respond so defensively when gun control issues are raised in their country. Some of the comments here are laughable. Their apparent need to insult us (Kiwis) instead of having the emotional maturity to recognise the massive social, cultural, and legislative problems that their country faces - even when these issues combine to kill their own children and country-men. If the problem is based in ingrained ideas of attitudes - un-ingrain them! If it's taboo, make them un-taboo. It's time for the US to take ownership and address this. How many times will we see this occur there? We can only hope that the comments on this site do not reflect the attitudes of ordinary Americans.
AM
Both USA and NZ have legalised abortion. That's millions of murders per year. Gun murder pales in comparison. I don't think a society that allows so much death is going to change anything because of a shooting spree. More people died by abortion at the same date and time than did in the shooting.
Doug Sumner
Reading most of the messages being left, one feels that in one area Kiwis are missing the picture, and on the other so are some Americans who have quite justifiably made some poignant points. In the Americans defence, what we fail to understand is that the "right to bear arms: is actually carved into the American Constitution of which that country was founded on. If there are to be any changes, then quite rightly the people of the United States will have to decide. I must admit though, and i have had this having served in the British Army, and to the defence of Kiwis, why do some Americans feel as if the world owes them a favour because of what they did during WW2? Get over it mate! 45 years later your motto of "winning through superior firepower" is absolute rubbish! Try looking after your own back garden before you try to install your own values and "police" the rest of the world. I concur that this is not an attitude of all Americans, and I certainly had (and still do to this day), friends of whom I served with while attached to the Marine Corps. I hope that out of all this some sense and understanding will prevail, and finally lets not forget those who lost their lives.May God be with them!.
Iain
Well I have been reading the American bashers. Whilst I understand that the idea of such easy access to firearms is of concern, please remember the "finger" pulls the trigger causing the gun to fire, please dont go bashing a culture you dont know about. Read and learn culture. I mean if we bashed cultures here how is it your Maori culture seeks to tax the very air you breath and the beaches you enjoy for a treaty from a different culture and country I was born in New Zealand and have lived there most of my life. I know life in USA and find most people courteous but in all cultures and countries there are those unfortunates that slip through the mental cracks in society, and I know there plenty of cracks in New Zealand society. Another thing I find about Americans is their sense of pride they honour their country there flag there way of life , to put it into context , I remember when I was young loved nothing more than to be able to stay up and watch with pride as the All Blacks thrashed England ,Wales etc , would beg to stay up till 3am to watch the Game , Nowadays I firmly believe the pride in my country shown in society is gone or extremely watered down all into a multicultural theme which has eaten our identity, all my prayers to the families of this Vt slayings and all my prayers still go out to Aramoana victims , Cave Creek victims, etc.
Jules
What a sad indictment on human nature that all we can talk about is who is blame? Only one person pulled that trigger and regardless of where he was from, what his motives were, why no one saw the 'signs' he was disturbed, who sold him the guns etc the arguments pro/anti American are quite frankly irrelevant. This devastating event which resulted in the loss of life of 33 humans (regardless of their ethnicity/national allegiances) reflects one thing clearly; that we live in a world where a distinct lack of personal responsibility for the choices we make has become an international epidemic and is not restricted to the US or NZ. Take stock of your life, hug those you love and thank our dear Lord for all the blessings in your life; say a prayer for those who are sadly left behind to grieve the loss of their sisters and brothers; I am sure they need that more than immature arguments about who is to blame.
Daniel Urlich
To all Americans my deepest sympathy for what happened at Virginia Tech and hope the horror of that day will slowly heal.I would also like to apologize for the lunatic idiotic people putting down the US..God bless.
Justin Kings
I see a lot of people saying that the VT gun-free zone made the situation worse. That if the people on campus were allowed to have guns, then they would have been able to defend themselves from the killer. That to me is rationalizing.
Is it really sensible and practical to allow everyone access to guns? No doubt that would make things worse. What we need to do is think very carefully on solutions to reduce these sorts of things happening again. Surely we cannot entirely eliminate it. But surely improvements can be made. Giving everyone guns is not the answer.
Rhi
It saddens me to read the amount of 'nation bashing' (for lack of a better word!) going on in this forum. I am a proud kiwi, and although I have not visited America, I do definitely plan on doing so some day. Yes, what happened in Virginia was a tragedy that should not have occurred, and yes, America has its bad points regarding gun control, but no way does that give us the right to judge the whole of the country in regards to one law! I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that many people buy guns to protect themselves from other people that have guns. It's a vicious cycle! As has been brought up already, NZ does have its own problems, just as every other country does! No country is perfect! And to the Americans who are reading the messages on this board, please don't judge the whole of New Zealand on the basis of minority opinions. For those of you who say that you aren't going to visit NZ now because of the things that have been said, I am saddened for your loss, because you are going to be missing out on our beautiful country because of a few ignorant people.
Well anyway, that's my ten cents, and I also suggest that some of you read the forum rules before posting!(do not use language or make comments that can be considered discriminatory on the basis of...nationality).
Nottelling
America has the highest gun ownership in the world. A point many of you forget is who has the second highest gun ownership in the world. That would be New Zealand. Someone who wants to kill someone with a gun will always be able to find one although steps can be made to make it harder. In a country like the USA with a population of 300 million you are always going to get crazy nut cases like New Zealand's David Gray, etc who loose the plot and take out a whole lot of people in a much larger number. Repealing the gun laws unfortunately will result in the law abiding people surrendering their guns where as the criminals who are far more armed up than New Zealand criminals will keep theirs. There does need to be a better vetting system in the United States in terms of flagging people as unsuitable in a national ATF database that all gun shops can check customers similar to the Arms Act here. Everyone seems to bag the United States these days. I don't agree with the Iraq war but I do not want to totally condemn a country that has sent and continues to send thousands of its young men to lay their life on the line on foreign soil in numerous conflicts like World War II and Mogadishu and Afghanistan and also sends Billions of dollars of aid offshore.
David
The shootings were appalling and were the actions of a mentally ill individual. America's gun culture didn't cause this kid to shoot people, though it did provide the raw materials. The glib anti-Americanism here, and the opposing chest thumping from patriotic Americans, miss the real point for me. Which is: this story has dominated NZ's media outlets for 2 days now. Why do we allow ourselves to be fed these American stories as if they were our own stories? As if they hold special significance for New Zealanders? They don't. In the same period, car bombs in the mess that is US-invaded Bagdad have killed hundreds of people. While we pontificate about a psychopath in Virginia, the car bombs occupy a small column deep inside the NZ Herald. Where is our sense of perspective??
Adrian
I'm truly sorry and have the greatest of sympathy for the people who have lost their loved ones in Virginia. When the pictures of the people shot where shown on TV, all I could think about was that these people have been denied the right to a life that you and I would almost take for granted. They will have no career, no life partner, no children, no life. All because a disturbed young man, chose this path to release the demons within. Reading the views posted here, I'm surprised by the invectives spewed forth by both sides - Americans who are clearly annoyed by the Kiwi views, and Kiwi's who are annoyed by the US. Anyone stop to think that all this anger towards a point of view is aggression that is unwarranted? Wow, all this anger over a point of view. Are we so quick to vent against an opinion? Is this what we as a society are capable of in terms of a debate? Is it not surprising that our young people chose the path of anger and darkness, instead of resolution?
Brad
What can you do but laugh at what the USA readers are writing here? I struggle to understand how a nation can survive on thinking they rule the world and 'little NZ' is struggling to find its place in that world. Grow up and look outside your up sized diet coke. It is tragic that anyone should be as trapped as that guy must have felt - the lack of systems in place to help such people and prevent such tragic events is the same the world over. Everyone blames gun laws - ever thought about blaming officials, govts. and society for not helping people with mental issues. Whether you live in USA, NZ or India there is the same problem. But lets all write letters to a website expressing problems in each others countries... yeah, that will get the problem fixed. Ignorance is bliss. Kia Toa Kia Kaha
Travis
As an American citizen living in New Zealand I have to say I'm amused with the coverage of this shooting. Having read the press coverage and Kiwi views on this website you'd believe every American has two handguns and hates gun control. I grew up in a red state and never knew someone that had a handgun. Gun control was a pretty mainstream idea. We're not all lunatics although you wouldn't know it by the insane media coverage over here. You never realize how much people hate your country until people a tragedy like this to belittle it.
Matt
At least no one is blaming Marilyn Manson or Black Sabbath this time...
Mike
The idea that Michael Moore's movie is an accurate reflection of US society is like saying Once Were Warriors is an accurate reflection of NZ society. Basing your world view of a movie seems intellectually lazy.As a NZer who has lived in the US for five years I can say with complete certainty that the US is far safer than NZ. The threat of random violence is always close at hand in NZ - I have been hit in the head from behind by a complete stranger in NZ who told me his reason for doing so was because he wanted to go back to jail. I could never imagine this happening in the US. And to counter that never ending NZ myth - no you cannot randomly buy a gun here. No Uzi and cornflakes sorry. Great story but untrue. In my state it takes 10 days from the time I walk into a store to when I can pick up my weapon (after my FBI check has come back) Hating the US is hating yourself - the gunman was from Korean ancestory and his victims included an Israeli Holocaust survivor, two Puerto Ricans, a Canadian, a Peruvian, two Indians, an Indonesian and an Egyptian. So to all of those crowing about "Americans" being killed: you have no idea of what America is.This forum seems to prove that the "brain drain" is real. And as for several of the quotes posted by redneck Americans: how in a million years would a redneck Yank know this paper even exists?!! I think a bunch of these posts are put up by bored and hater Kiwis with time on their hands.
Chuck Bird
I do not see why America cannot change their gun laws without changing the Constitutional right to bear arms. I also most American think it acceptable to bar convicted criminals from owning a gun. What is wrong with banning people with severe mental health problems from owning a gun? I do not know for sure but I would guess that many of these mass killers with mental health problems do not have criminal records. In New Zealand it is not that hard to own a gun but we require a gun license. I do not own a gun but I have acted as a referee for some who obtained a gun license. It was about five years ago so I cannot the exact questions. I do remember I was asked about mental health and finally if there was any reason at all why this person should not have a gun license. To get a license you need two referees and a relation is checked. If one is married that relation is your wife and she is interview alone as are the other referees . This does not guarantee some lunatic will not get a gun. Criminals can still get guns. However, I think someone like the guy in Virginia would have difficulty getting a gun from a criminal.
Barry
Shame about the hypocrisy. Over 3,000,000 babies die each year from abortion in the USA.
Mullet
Firstly my condolences to all the people affected by the massacre of 33 people at VT, and condolences to the 200 Iraqis & their families massacred the same day.It was very interesting to read the comments made by a few obviously republican supporters when highlighting the 'need' to bear arms for 'protection'. You may notice that here in NZ our terrorist attcks are limited to 1 - The Rainbow Warrior, Greanpeace's anti nuclear boat sunk by the French in Auckland harbour with the loss of one life. Or 2 - the cutting down of the iconic pine tree located on One Tree Hill, also in Auckland. Both had political motivations and pale in significance to the recent attacks on the USA. Other crimes such as serious assault etc committed by 'tweakers' on crystal meth usually amount to some injury but very rarely death. This can only be attributed to the fact we do not have a minimart selling handguns etc on every second corner. Lets not get sidetracked by all the times America has 'saved' other countries from 'persecution', Korea, Vietnam, and now Iraq and Afghanistan. Lets just look at the track record...Korea - Truce, Vietnam - Loss, Afghanistan!
- Mounting losses, Iraq Massive Mounting Losses. Hmmm USA you really need to realise that the only reason the Japs didn't take you down in WW2 was because you nuked them, kind of disappointing that you had to rely on a kiwi scientist to crack the atom for you. Please just try and grow up USA I can't beleive that 300 million of you voted in a puppet not once but twice!!! Is it only me noticing how GDB has to pause and wait for the next line of every speach he makes to come from his earpiece? Sad and pathetic (bully) is how the rest of the world looks at you at the moment. This is of course your own doing. You actually had respect with President Clinton, now look at your reputation. Please try to remember that you are judged on your actions by your peers, ie: other countries rather than your own perverted state controlled media.All the best for your expensive unnecessary war. Maybe you will one day realise that you can actually get through life without tooting a firearm under one arm!
Matt
200 civilians were killed in Baghdad yesterday. And dozens the day before that and so on, but that seems to be okay because it is not in the Western world. It is interesting how New Zealanders have been commenting on an issue i.e. gun control yet the response from readers posting from the good ol' US of A is generally one of name-calling and insults. America is not above reproach. We are not perfect either but...cop it sweet.
Ed from the US
Here we go again more Hatred on the US from another fool. Hey Travis, if it was not for the evil Americans you would be speaking Japanese right now.I would love to see the look on the faces of the rest of the world if after the next tyrant taking over Asia, Europe or maybe the next killer Tsunami and they do as they always do cry for help and the US turned a blind eye but we never do, we help and give aid free of charge and yet you ungrateful fools keep pissing and moaning.
Martin
I am also upset and sad after reading some of the posters to this thread, I don't know why anyone would use this forum seemingly to hurt others through typing abuse rather than trying to express support for those innocent peoples families and friends. Stephen S.Williamson (Kiwi in Bangkok)To David who wrote "I am a dual US/NZ citizen and I currently live in Seattle Washington. I attend the University of Washington..." As well as to all American readers I would like to express my own and my family's sorrow at what has occurred at VT, and to those persons' families directly affected by the tragic loss of life, and express our condolences. Secondly to David, if you are perhaps the same gentleman I can recall meeting in June 1999 while in Auckland working in the AA Albert street branch temping I would like to say a big Hi to you and pass on my Best Regards.
Brooke
How many of us congratulated and defended the actions of the gun shop owner in Auckland that shot the guy who entered his shop and threatened him with a knife! Why now are we being so horrible to American's as a whole?. This is one person who has made a decision - if he wanted to kill he was going to, regardless of whether he had a gun or not!
Mark G
Talk about Americans saving NZ when we get into trouble shouldn't even come into this debate. No one is saying the American Army shouldn't have full access to weapons (unless people are implying that it will be American civilians and not the American Army that will come to NZ's aid in the time of a crisis). The issue isn't even an American issue, its a human society issue (let's not forget over 200 people were killed in Bagdad on the same day as these killings). The main issue is while the laws to allow us to load up our defences with guns, they are same law's that allow us to load up our offences. Personally no one should have a gun unless they are in the armed forces, however unless someone can think of a way to remove all guns from al