KEY POINTS:
Here are more of Your Views:
Sade (Rotorua)
As a 3rd generation urban Maori I now have offsprings of 4th and 5th urban generations and have always been associated with several gangs in New Zealand, I tend to look at the 2 generations before me and have been disappointed with the lack of leadership and empowerment they have to offer for our people, their views on playing the victim has somewhat been such an escapegoat for their failures that I wonder when is this gonna end. Come on everyone its time to grow up do we need to let our kids suffer, its not about you its about our babies for they are our future, you cant save the world but you can lead by example.
PS (Auckland)
Having lived in Singapore for many years, it amazed me to see how gangs are tolerated in NZ and they openly roam the streets. Singapore faced a similar situation in the 60s and 70s with triads, and today it is the safest country in Asia, maybe the world. Gangs were wiped out because of sheer determination of the people and the government and their zero tolerance policy of gangs. To hear the NZ government saying that it is impossible to get rid of gangs is hogwash - they have to be willing to do that in the first place. Our streets will never be safe until the government adapt a zero tolerance policy towards crime, but looking at the light sentences criminals get away with here (if they get any at all), that will remain a dream.
Darren
Tariana Turia has just confirmed what the vast majority of New Zealanders already think about her integrity and ability. To make a sweeping statement that not all gang members are criminals shows how little she really knows about her people and their involvement with gangs. As a former Police Officer I have experienced firsthand the impact these losers have on society. They dont join gangs for their health plans, to enter law abiding employment or to make a worthwhile contribution to society. This is just another example of those in authority within Maori burying their heads in the sand and not acknowledging and addressing the real issues facing their people and society in general. And yes, as a proactive acknowledgment, not all gang members are Maori. Gangs are made up from a broad range of cultures.
Don Cascade (Idah, USA)
Since you already know who the gang members are you already have half the problem solved. The next step is to have the law enforcement establishment systematically eliminate known gang members in the same way other vermin are eliminated. It's the duty of any society to maintain a safe environment for its law abiding citizens.
Margot
Why does the media take any notice of Tariana? Surely if her malicious and idiotic comments were not published or broadcast then she wouldn't make sane Kiwi's blood boil. Out of sight out of mind. Let the gangs have a go at each other. If they knock each other off then reducing the number of violent criminals can only be good for NZ.
Mother and Grandmother Browns Bay
Tarianas comment would make a great Tui ad. Yeah Right!
Rob Steele
I think that with the Maori paty and the Labour party both burying their heads in the sand over this issue is what's best for the Maori party and Labour party. Lets drop the pc bs and start doing what's required before it's you and I.
An Asian
What a surprise, a Maori MP blaming someone else for issues within their own community. Yeah lets blame the Asians for importing drugs. Wallow in your own self pity more please. How about you get off your backsides, find a real job and stop leeching off the welfare system that I'm being taxed ridiculously high for since you know, I actually work.
WP
Great call Mrs. Turia. Let's blame it on the Asians again.
Carl
If NZ doesn't act quickly with stemming the gang culture and its ill affects on our society. You can be sure gangs will surely dominate their neighbourhoods and before we know it, a "ghetto" culture will exist in our society. Matter of fact, some areas in S. Auckland are already beginning to resemble this in some shape or form. Ms. Clark's comments are incredulous if not ridiculous that banning gangs is not a solution, for if that was the case. they wouldn't have existed for this long. Might I remind the 'honourable' Ms. Clark there was once an 'honourable' Ms. Shipley too who similarly decided lowering the drinking age would not be detrimental to our 'responsible' youth. She should have a read of this http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10438416 ,,, Point taken, thank You !
Phil
So many people racing to condemn the perpetrators of this sad event. Why? Usually an indication of desperation to disavow guilt. We all make up our society and yet so many refuse to see that society still marginalises young men particularly young Maori men. I realise that the bring back the birch types will claim that it's "too PC" to consider the root causes of Maori on Maori violence but there is no doubt that it occurs far less often in inclusive communities where everyone has a chance of self actualisation within the mainstream community. The alienation of Maori males begins at school and continues onwards so that by the time many Maori people reach adolescence they feel separate from the bulk of the community. Yes, the causes are complex and difficult chiefly because they relate to the loss of mana that any colonised people experience, yet until we all accept that we all need to change our society this stuff will continue. So much easier to bluster about unworkable laws like 'banning gangs' whatever that means apart from the sub-text which is "Vote for me".
Colin England
Prohibition has already been tried and it failed. It resulted in the rise of gangs, gang warfare and doesn't actually prevent the use of the banned substance. If we want to reduce the influence that gangs have then stop the massive profits that our present laws presently allow them to make. This is going to require legalising a significant range of recreational drugs (not all of them). The sooner you can buy marijuana, cocaine and LSD at the wholesaler the sooner the gangs will start losing their financial footing (who's going to buy from some dangerous criminal when they can buy from a reputable wholesaler?). Without the finances they will eventually collapse.
Stoffz
"Not all gang members are criminals" - this should be noted as one of the most moronic statements ever made.
Mary (Titirangi)
This Black Power leader says they're not a gang it's whanau - how dare he. Who is he to mesh culture with cruelty? I'm so tired of gangs hiding behind their distorted notion that being criminal/killers is 1. Acceptable and 2. all about whanau....what a load of rubbish. Gangs are about power and money - that's why they run in groups, wear patches and intimidate people - and all this courage while hiding behind bandanas - This is not "whanau" bro - it's pack menatality. You're top dog and you love it so don't mistake it with "whanau"...If we had mandatory army service the gang traits we find so hard to live with in our society would not be out of place on the front line - let's be honest they would make great soldiers because they follow orders without thought or question - the perfect soldier.
Joker
Yes all gangs in all forms. That means all gangs. All teams as well and that means all. A.C.C. teams/ gangs. Church Gangs. Political Gangs. Professional Legal Gangs. Bully Gangs. There is no end to Gangs developing in N.Z.
Andrew Montgomery
We should not try to ban gangs. We should however compel politicians of all persuasions, criminal lawyers and members of the judiciary to spend a month each living in the same streets as the local tinny houses and gangs in order to stimulate their thinking about the problem. Currently they are all far to detached. Once they walk the walk they will learn to talk the talk. Probably with the exception of a few high profile lawyers who all know the situation inside out.
Himan (Auckland)
It is high time NZ laws become tougher on gangs and any rowdism and rogues. NZ and most of its people are nice and easy going who respect laws. However, if NZ wants to remain a safe for elders walking in the streets, law abiding citizens and for the responsible younger generation, the perceived softness is required to be addressed. No deaths or injuries can be condoned, not of a 2 year old innocent child or a twenty year old walking man on the street. I hope, that the Government, much concerned about "anti-smacking" will do some required "smacking" (please do not perceive this as physical beating please, as otherwise, some liberals may start attacking me) legislations for those who are or are likely to become habitual offenders.
Average voter
Gangs damage our lives in many ways they are terrorists, and all patch gangs should be closed down. All we need is a government that has the common sense and the balls to do it.
Justin
I find it interesting that most of your respondents demand that the government control gangsters and defend civil liberties in one breath.
Civil liberties are guarantees of protection from government interference in your most basic rights. The civil liberties of anyone - gang members included - should continue to be protected lest the definition of gangster ever change to suit those in power. Certainly no freedoms should be traded for protections by anyone in New Zealand. We risk becoming as hostile a police state as the UK and US have become, where people are tasered by police for non-compliance rather than posing a specific threat. The real answer here is more effective policing of crimes based on their individual merits. If the police choose to focus on gang related crimes then that's their choice of staff distribution. But we must remember that the police can also effectively do their job without New Zealanders needing to give up vital freedoms.
Suki
I think Michael Laws has a good point - deny welfare benefits to all gang members and their associates. They are anti-social and why should the taxpayer support them.
Observer
Is Tariana Turia conveniently blaming "Asian" gangs for the tragic shooting in Wanganui? I hope not. Regardless of who brings methamphetamine into NZ - and yes, its very convenient to scapegoat a certain group - the point surely is that, as adults, we make our own choices. No one forces you to consume the stuff, regardless of who brings it in. It would be nice if just for once, adults in this country actually take responsibility for their own actions, instead of blaming "society" at large. My heart goes out to the little girl who died. What choice did she have?
Sarah
All gang members participate in taking/supplying drugs of some kind, which is a criminal activity therefore they are all criminals. Perhaps Turia is trying to say maybe they are not all murderous thugs who'll kill an innocent 2 year old baby if it gets in their way?
Delenn
Who is Tariana Turia trying to kid? Is she so in denial of what these gangs represent she feels the need to downplay the crimes they commit? Wake up Turia, NZ can see for themselves exactly what these gangs are. Dont try and hide it.
John
What colour is the sky in Tariana Turia's world? Most of her comments show how out of touch with reality she is and how little she understands the gravity and complexity of the issues, i.e. the meningococcal debate. Maori or Pakeha the quality of our politicians needs to improve.
Johnny
Of course it would be an infringement of civil liberty to outlaw gangs. What Wanganui Mayor Michael Laws fails to realise is that in a democratic society, and individual is "innocent until proven guilty," not the other way around. If you are going to outlaw gangs, then you'd have to outlaw the boy scouts etc. Mr. Laws is using the death of the unfortunate child as alarmist grandstanding and demonising gangs. It is obvious that the perpetrators of the drive-by shooting had no idea where the child was at the time. The poor child was in the wrong place, at the wrong time.
Trevor
What an embarrassment. The so-called tough guys in society are no more than child killers. The politicians will rant and rave and when this furor dies down it will be just the same. Which is even more embarrassing. Why do we accept this?
JB
Impossible as what defines a gang? Does that include a drunk team of rugby players away on tour picking fights and intimidating people which we have all seen? Does that include the All Blacks when a player smashes his way into a stranger's hotel room (though that is probably classified as a home invasion). Banning gangs is like banning crime... what a laughable suggestion by a soap boxing politician trying to crawl their way into the media spotlight.
Bill Martin
Didn't the Muldoon govt pass a law that no more than 3 known criminals can congregate together in public? If that law was enforced or brought back and policed with tough penalties it would have to make a difference. The Govt must enforce it in such a way like drink driving no drawn out court cases, no legal aid, mandatory sentences, they are criminal gangs and as such should be unable to wear gang patches in public, lets face it its the patches that draw the youth to admire the gangs.
Chris (London)
Gangs should not be outlawed because it does infringe civil liberties. How do you define a gang? How do you enforce the law? To try to would catch the Girl Guides, Lions Club and Mongrel Mob all in the one law. My suggestion is to use the existing laws against target subjects known to be breaking the law.
Marya
The tragic event last weekend involving a little two-year-old child being shot to death in a gang shootout, is appalling to say the least. From pictures I've seen, it seems the house where the child was killed is a state house! I do stand to be corrected in this respect, but if this is the case there are two points I'd like to raise in regards to this issue. The first point is how on earth did gang members manage to secure a state house, and secondly bedrooms are available in government housing, so why was the two year old asleep on a couch in the living area? Obviously the gang members concerned didn't qualify legally for a state house! Banning gangs! How is a gang defined? There's the Masonic Lodge, the Business Round Table, Churches of all denominations, the RSA, etc etc for instance, all of which are groups of people who congregate with the same interests and values, although as far as we know these organisations don't perform illegal activities. Then there are the most bullying, intimidating and threatening of all gangs, Councils! Couldn't councils be defined as gangs, because they certainly use very nasty gang tactics towards residents and ratepayers!
What da?
Tariana Turia needs to get her head checked if she believes that not all gang members are criminals. Try looking up the dictionary and get a grip with what it means before you become a MP. Utterly pathetic when this person is suppose to represent parts of the community.
Auckland
If the govennment put as much energy into stopping the kind of abuse upon children the gangs perpetuate, or put as much effort into cleaning up the gangs as they have in 'cleaning up' the police-force, this country might be a better place to live in. But of course, they would not wish to be seen to be tampering with anyone's civil liberties would they?
SJ (Netherlands)
There is no benefit in 'banning' gangs, it wont work. There is no benefit 'demanding' that the government 'sort this out' as some others have suggested. A good government interferes in peoples daily lives as little as possible and doesn't dictate how we should live. Since moving to Europe I have appreciated more and more the lack of 'big brother' govt in NZ, as I now live in a country with 'rules' for everything. The only way to prevent the influence of gangs over potential members is to provide something else for those potential gang members to do and to 'be'. If you have no hope and you dont 'fit' anywhere, then the gang life becomes very desirable, but if you have something to lose, and a place you already feel comfortable the gangs have less appeal. I bet the guys responsible for the death of the child are themselves feeling very bad at the moment and I would hope they do the right thing and take responsibility for it and face the consequences. We dont need to change laws or make new ones, we already have laws to deal with people who commit murder.
Larry (Auckland)
The question shouldn't be try to ban gangs. The question should be 'Why doesn't the government ban gangs, and use the military forces to enforce the ban'.
Tim Spooner
Turia reminds me of the pig's chant in George Orwell's Animal Farm. "4 legs good, 2 legs bad".Replace it the Turia way with " Maori good, Pakeha bad". Gangs are by definition criminal and bad. Nonsense about RSA, Police etc being another "gang" are rubbish. The more that woman opens her mouth, the more her words are obviously mindlessly racist. When she can see that many of her own people are not worth defending, the sooner she can help Maori who want to advance in life.
Anne (Auckland)
Banning and/or the fulltime monitoring of gangs could pose a major economic expense which the country can ill- afford and there is the absolute certainty that they will all go underground (just like terrorist movements usually do). I wholeheartedly agree with a prominent Maori leader who recommended many years ago that compulsory military training should be reinstated. Michael Laws also has my support in recommending that benefits and state housing should not be available for any person with gang affiliations. Let them use their own money (ill gotten gains from selling drugs, guns, etc) to support their families. Chieftain Ms Turia is right -- not all gang members are criminals. And these members have everything to gain and nothing to lose by expelling the criminal elements out of their gangs. If they don't act soon they may get overtaken by events, when society makes their gang membership a crime in itself. This will make what is and should be a legitimate lifestyle choice for them no longer viable. And it's a long slippery slope that society probably would prefer not to travel down: once gangs are outlawed, are secret societies like the Freemasons next?
Sandra (Auckland)
How many gang members are currently in our prisons, for serious drug and sexual crimes? It is time for her to wake up and realise that gangs wear their patches for the sole purpose of intimidation. They do not work, the taxpayers are funding part of their lifestyle and their illegal activities are funding the balance. The New Zealand public have had enough, as one radio DJ said this morning, put the whole darned lot of them on a remote island and make sure they cannot get off, to leave the rest of the law abiding society to live our lives in peace. I am sure that the NZ Police would agree with that view too, as it would free up resources that could be put to much better use than cleaning up after the violence etc brought about by a pack of gutless people who, when on their own, are just yellow cowards.
Glad to be living in Australia
As a former Police Officer I laughed out loud when I read about Tariana Turia's view that, "not all gang members are criminals". I do agree that banning gangs is not the answer. I believe the answer lies with the media. I am constantly disappointed when I see the different gang factions identified in the media. Why even state that someone is, "a patched gang member". Why should it matter whether someone is, "patched", or which ridiculous name they call themselves and their partners in crime. I know for a fact these individuals who call themselves gang members feed off their identification in the media. Its time New Zealand stopped glorifying gangs and feeding their egos. In the Police I worked primarily with two gangs and it was completely insignificant to us which gang was which. When it came down to it, criminal behaviour was criminal behaviour. There is nothing to be gained by publicly identifying them unless the media wishes to promote membership amongst the misguided individuals who are attracted to gangs.
Richard
I dont know about outlawing them but the gangs have got to go. They are organized crime in charge of the drug trade and very well financed and organized. We must do whatever it takes to get rid of these gangsters. They have got to go.
Ianhnz
I think that either Tariana Turia is ill-informed or has no idea of gang culture. My understanding is to get into these high profile gangs you have to commit a crime.
Graeme
Of course banning gangs will solve the problem of gangs violence and crime. Just as, banning smacking will solve the problem of child abuse. Just as compulsary microchipping of dogs will stop them attacking.
Just as legalisation of prostitution will stop underage girls from selling themselves. This government is all about making stupid laws. Why should they stop now?
Silver Fox
It's about time Mrs Turia got the chip off her shoulder and stopped blaming others and acknowledged where the responsibility lies. So now all gang members are not criminals. That could be so but the old saying applies "show me your company and I'll tell you who you are." This homily means in effect that if you belong to a gang with criminal associations then you are tarred with the same brush whether you like it or not.
Robin (expat from the region)
Poor little girl, my sympathy goes to the whole community, especially family and friends. New Zealand is such a nice place, and most of the people are ok. Gangs are generally for the weak and simple that can't make it on there own. There is no excuse for members to step outside of the rules even if they are stupid. This situation should be dealt with internally and immediately. Gang leaders deal with your members if you have the heart, if not you are weak. Leave the public alone. This behaviour is not acceptable.
Neil (Auckland)
Wouldn't banning gangs spoil the image of NZ as the most criminal friendly country in the world? Why would the Labour govt want that to happen?
Ian
I cannot see how any government now or in the future could possibly ban gangs, despite what some politicians like to say. Short of putting cameras in every house in the land to monitor peoples behaviour, something like George Orwell's 1984 perhaps, would that suit you all. Do any of us want to live in a country like that, I seriously doubt it. Sorry folks, I cannot see that doing much more than is being done now would ever be possible. And to those that want longer prison sentences, or more people actually in prison, I wonder if you would also be the first to criticise the government for spending more money building more prisons as the number of prisons grow. Not in my back yard seems to be the opposing outcry.As far as banning gang patches is concerned, are we going to have the clothing police here also? I don't want our beautiful country to become a reflection of one of George Orwell's nightmares. Get real and try to be realistic.
Scott
What is the definition of a gang? If you outlaw gangs, suddenly all sorts of institutions (rugby clubs, motorcycle clubs, RSA) will become a haven for illegal activity instead. Deal with the cause of gangs, not the symptom. We've already banned shooting people with guns but that hasn't caused it to stop.
Helpthem! (New Lynn)
This is outrageous. The govermment need to sort this out or grab there things and leave! Stupid idiots that when they dont get their own way resort to killing an 2 yr old.
Neville Ramsden
We left NZ 21yrs ago partly because of so-called gangs back then. You couldn't go to a local pub for a meal an a drink with out being bullied or intimidated by these groups,if need be bring in the army an clean them out for good
Bill (Palmy)
The intimidation and organised crime undertaken by gangs is something not to be tolerated in our society. Current laws clearly make much of this activity unlawful. Further action such as banning patches is extremely difficult to define exactly what constitutes gang regalia. For example there are many motorcycle clubs, whose members are law abiding citizens, but have embraced the Harley-Davidson counter-culture. Their dress and appearance can be quite similar to some gangs (like the Headhunters), but their activities are far from being criminal or intentionally intimidating. The HOG members include lawyers, accountants and even ministers of the cloth, who are respectable citizens in their day jobs. If regalia is the only discriminating factor, as proposed by Michael Laws, then groups of road cyclists in their bright lycra outfits may have to watch out. Their only crime being to congregate for a shared activity, finishing with a latte at a local cafe.
Mildkiwi (Auckland)
If its an infringement on civil liberties - how about the civil liberties of those of us not in gangs. The should have been outlawed many years ago. We now have kids in our streets attacking other kids - just because they can and because they see it happening with adults and in the news - so it must be cool. Outlaw it now and clean up our streets.
Carol
Its about time this government grew a backbone and started stamping down on these people. What the hell is it going to take, just how many people have to die, before they do anything, get rid of gangs, outlaw them. Do something. I am shocked that we allow these scum to be on our streets.
Poo
The problem with "outlawing gangs" is how do we define a gang in legal terms. Is it a bunch of people who hang out together in large groups and wear very similar clothing? Sounds like punks, metalheads, bogans, goths, local body politicians, police officers etc. Can we define them by what crimes they commit? Not really, lots of crims hang out in groups and have the same terrible taste in cloths/music etc but that doesnt make them a gang. Maybe we should outlaw criminals altogether as some commentators have suggested. Hitler tried this, quite effective too, getting rid of all groups in society that they didnt like. It got out of hand though, so lets not go there again. Like it or not, we can't outlaw "gangs" so lets think up some effective ways to reduce crime please.
AS
We have a percentage of the population living mainly amongst themselves (gangs)that have very little hope of ever living the lives most of us expect. They do live by rules as appalling as they may be to most of the population. You can be sure that the leaders of the gang these members belonged to will have reacted to this terrible deed with vigour. It is even possible these members will be made an example of, as the last thing the gangs want is the army on there tails,which would inevitably happen if they were pushed in to a corner by the police and came out fighting. I would appeal to the leaders of these gangs to ban P from their networks, and in fact stop the making and selling of it nationwide, and lead their people to a more honourable way of life. I know there are already some older gang members leading this internal struggle. Let us all hope that the death of this young life that had the chance to become anything a human can be, somehow helps us to all to change for the better.
Nel (Auckland)
Lets stop being PC and get these guys who think they are above the law where they really belong behind bars. Want to get a 'Go to jail card' join a gang.. become a patch member. The police and we all know these gang members are up to no good so why are we allowing them to mess this nice country of ours. I come from India where to talk about belonging to a gang was not heard of let alone roaming the streets with gang member insignia emblazoned on jackets.Get real New Zealand. Realise what you have here other countries dream of a country like ours but if we dont look sharp and yes with Labor in power guess we will be another New York city hood.
Frostyboy 12
Groups, bands or gangs of people that have a history or business of violence, crime and abuse should be closely monitored. If events of a similar nature such as the ones previously named are repetitive then such groups should be eradicated from society or in other words outlawed. I understand that this won't be the case for some social groups out there hence the reason to have stricter supervision and more definitive processes. Acts of violence, crime and abuse to name a few, upset the foundation that civil liberties are based. Last week a ex gang member was interviewed on a TV1 program and said that to take patches away from a gang member would be like taking a bottle from a baby. When asked to elaborate on his answer the ex- gang member replied to the effect that the baby would react in a way expected. Our expectation can partially be taken from what history has taught us and experience has taught us that if you take a bottle away from a baby, high chance the baby would cry which hits this ex-patched members point. This implied threat is an instinct of such groups which is a danger to the peaceful living in society and an attack on civil liberties for all.
Mikos (Auckland)
Banning gangs in general presents the problem of how to define what is a legal gathering and what is a gang. However I see no reason why specific organisations cant be banned instead of general legislation. Surely society has no place for organised groups? from the mongrel mob and black power through to skinhead and nazi gangs. Even if the gangs tried to change their name and continue operating it still results in diminished identity for the gang and would make recruiting harder.
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