KEY POINTS:
Here is an earlier selection of Your Views:
KentOnce again, NZ is kowtowing to the minority opinion. Which of course is correct. After all, the government is made up with a bunch of minority parties all espousing a minority opinion.
The majority can just go to hell. Which, ironically, is exactly where Helen is trying to send us.
KirstI think that by announcing that this country is not a Christian nation is demoralising the nation. this nation is built on Christian principles, and whether or not you believe in god, is irrelevant. We cannot turn our backs on our heritage, for the people who died to defend a nation once called "gods own" how about we show some respect.
Sharon, mother of 7.very concerned!! This nation was fought for by ww2 soldiers for it to be a Christian nation. What a slap in the face for you to even consider changing our history! i would hate to be the one that answers to God on this issue!
Godson of AucklandI believe that the Christian prayer should remain in parliament. It is a wonderful way to start a day and being half Maori and European myself i think it remains to be respectful to Maori protocol of having karakia (Prayer) in the morning to start the day and it is also honouring to God the creator and author of all authority. We are a Christian nation and God is as relevant today as he was in old testament times, unfortunately the more educated we have become the less we as a society think that we need a faith and belief in a higher authority. As a voter in a so called democratic society it is important to me to know that God is in the mix somewhere in the governmental halls of power. It gives me hope!
GlennIf we were to stop bothering God with prayers that most people have no real interest in He might just have a little more time to focus on problems in places like Africa were a little divine intervention is really needed.
Andrew - AklAs a Christian I am thankful for the people protesting in Waitangi this week. I am also encouraged to see that it was peaceful and without the intolerance shown at past protests concerning national and family values. Helen Clark has a right to her opinion but should be clear that it is hers and not that of her constituents, who by the way are largely Catholic. NZ is widely seen and known as a tolerant country and long may that live. But without foundation, vision or direction there will never be a clear or unified populous and future. It seems we don't want to face up to much of let alone resolve our short national history and as a result have many divided groups and gaps have grown especially in the past 5 or so years. So let us hope for a positive future and one that we all feel welcome and valued in and one that can become unified no matter what our differences are.
Ian The French have the correct answer to this question of religion and religious influence in their politics. They have laws stopping any religion from entering their government or influencing their government in any way. That is definitely the best way to go when you look at the other alternative, being people like Brian Tamaki and his income generator, Destiny Church.
RobAt national events such as Anzac Day and Waitangi Day, and also at all domestic and international sporting events we proudly proclaim 'God Defend New Zealand' in both Maori and New Zealand versions, this sends a clear example that New Zealand was originally united over a Christian heritage. I would almost bet my bottom dollar that Helen Clark has her sights set on removing our current national anthem, then maybe even our flag. May 'God Defend New Zealand' from her.
SamI think we are all taking for granted how comfortably we all live in this neutral country in these times of war and death all in the name of religion. How many wars in humanities vast history have been exercised in the name of ones religion? In this multi-cultural society that we live in, in relative harmony compared to other countries, I actually believe that there are more atheists than any religious following. The world is waking up and realising that religion is just another conformist organisation with dictators like Brian Tamaki leading the flock, waving his big flag and holding out his hand. The sole point of this protest seems to be for him to gain more followers (or sheep whichever way you look at it) and more funding. If Christian beliefs were held to be true, then you don't need to go to church to be a good person and lead a good life by you and others around you, therefore religion has no purpose in modern society other than as a form of control.
Kingdom guyNZ doesn't need a state religion. but it needs Christians living their lives to the max. after all isn't that what jc asked for in the bible? if JC has decided that his kingdom is not of this world, then perhaps Christians just ought to get their priorities right. I take my hat out to tamaki and co but brothers, just be the salt and light in aotearoa. your calling is much higher than politics.
IanRemind me why we need a State Religion? Talk of other religions "defiling" New Zealand is insulting and childish. Next thing we know Pope Tamaki will be leading a Crusade against the heretics.
Jay from AucklandHell no to state religion! :-)
Wayne from BotanyA child born in New Zealand is not a Christian. He or she is a human being who grows up to make his or her own choices, including that of religious belief. We have political borders through historical happenings outside of our control and we have to make the best of that. It does not follow that having Christianity in our past means it must dominate our present, indeed we should always be questioning our past in order to improve our present and our future. Brian Tamiki's brand of charismatic Christianity is just an excuse for him to control people and promote his own intolerant propaganda. His views are not supported by fact or reason and should not influence normal society's lives.
Mr SynergyI believe that New Zealand is a Christian country. This is shown by our statutes in the judicial system, parliament, laws etc. Also the head of state the Queen is head of the Anglican church.
MahiaI think itz something that needed to be done, the current Labour Government is trying to bypass the Christian heritage this great country was founded on and must be established formally to which Bishop Tamaki has done by presenting a declaration to Helen Clark. You only need to look into the history of this country and you will be amazed at how much Christianity was a vital part to shaping the foundations of this country so i say good work Bishop Tamaki and Destiny Church and those that supported because it needed to be done.
TeresaI am in full support of Brian Tamaki's declaration and it is not until the fruit comes forth from the choices and decisions that this government makes that then New Zealanders consider what has actually been done. For example take the prostitution bill when Brian Tamaki marched against this legislation there was all types of criticism that come his way.But now let us look what this legislation has done. Well we now have 12yrs on the street corners of Manurewa and Hunters Corner and even business district selling their services. Instead of protecting prostitutes this has exposed them even more. The media are always quick to twist the truth of what Brian Tamaki says. But his message was that all nationalites were welcome but to understand our true Christian heritage. And that New Zealand is a Christian Nation. If you look at what was signed at Waitangi from the great ancestoral Maori Chiefs (good magazine to read about this is Investigate).They were under the impression that we would come under the crown and under the umbrella of Christianity. You take Christianity out of society and we are looking into very dark days for New Zealand.
David, AucklandYes, it is ridiculous to deny our religious heritage, but to say we have a state religion? That's oppressive. I'm an atheist, and proud. My belief is that I need not look above when I can look inside myself. Comments that we have thousands of Christian church-goers seem a little ignorant. I'm sure we also have thousands of Muslim mosque-goers or Hindu Temple-visitors as well. I only need to drive 20 minutes to get to the closest Buddhist Shrine. That is what I love about NZ. Freedom. Tamaki is a bigoted, near-sighted fool who will always come out with things like this. It is his right to do so, and the measure of us as a country is how well we can ignore him and do what's right.
Pat MThe conference currently underway has, to my knowledge, nothing to do with the presence or absence of a state religion here. I was under the impression it was to foster dialogue and inhibit extremism. We have gotten on fine for 150-odd years without an official state religion. No-one would deny that we live to a set of Christian values. Our values are cultural and societal. There is nothing in need of political protection or at risk of political persecution. Somebody made note of the fact that some countries do have a state religion, alluded to middle-eastern states and railed at how their states repress Christian values. But then statements like :
"...allow foreign religions and foreign beliefs and other philosophies to proliferate into our country and begin to defile the very soil of this land..." it sounds like the sort of thing that comes out of Tehran, not Waitangi. The protest was a classic deflection from the point of the conference. It was all about publicity for Brian Tamaki.
For someone who claims he advocates positive, Christian and family values, his public statements seem to constantly accentuate the negative.
Sid MHaven't we more important things to worry about?
tawhaowhao from minginui"There is no religion higher than truth" Theosophical society. Not much else you can say. We are a nation of diverse people, what religious sect you happen to belong to/or not is kind of irrelevant. Should they not all lead to the same point? Is it not up to each person to find their own way? There is the old story about missionaries coming here and giving the Bible with one hand and taking the land with the other. Seems to me thats exactly what happened. Why would I want to be classed as a Christian? I directly worship the land, the trees, the rivers, the birds and the sky.
Let us all bless God.
EvokeThe debate is not about changing our state religion. The fact is we always had a state religion we just never formalised it. The National Anthem "God defend New Zealand"
Our countries nickname "Godzone" Our prayer in Parliament "Jesus Christ our Lord" The Maori who signed the Treaty signed it with the understanding that we are a Godly nation. The fact that the speaker wants to change the Prayer in Parliament is just proof of the governments plans to neutralise our country, allowing the money from eastern religions flow into our economy.Look at Paris, France and England to see the racial tension once the Muslim nations dominate. They are not neutral, neither should we be.
Michael HamiltonA prayer should be retained before the opening of the vitally important business of Parliament. The functions performed by our MPs are amongst the most responsible and demanding jobs or functions of any person working in New Zealand. Our MPs govern us, make decisions affecting all of our lives, and pass laws and determine the spending of money and really the "tenor" and direction of New Zealand. As such, they need to listen properly and consider with good understanding and perception many issues and views, including complex and/or opposing ones, and must vote on many matters. Parliament passes our laws. These functions demand a high level of personal integrity and honesty, proper concentration, humility, responsibility, courage, graciousness, good thinking and judgment, and wisdom. These are all qualities which at times are rather challenging, and a prayer to God is an acknowledgment that we all need His help and strength and wisdom. It will be a very sad day if this country does not recognise the need for God's wisdom, guidance and help---which many people know and experience to be a tremendous strength and reality.
Faithful followerGood on Bishop Brian Tamaki,We need more men of God like him in NZ to stand up for our LORD. The state NZ is now We need a man like him to stand proud for what we believe in. We all need Jesus in our lives either we admit it or not.
Pinz (Whakatane) Kia ora. As Tangata Whenua of Aotearoa,I am more than aware of the history of my home land. Howerver looking to the future, I can tell you this. I have walked on the other side of the line and as a born again Christian will tell you this. I will never go back to my former lifestyle! As for Helen Clark & the Maori Party, my vote will be going else where. Take the focus off what you think of Brian Tamaki and be honest with yourselves! Exodus 20:3 states "worship no other God but me" Brian is merely stating what the word of Gods says.Try reading his biography, you might learn something! Kia kaha, kia maia,kia manawanui. Kia kaha tonu Destiny Church.
CeliaAs far as I can remember Christianity has been the majority religion in New Zealand. Christianity has been a part on New Zealand since the missionaries from Britain first arrived. My Maori ancestors were very strong in their Christian faith. One of the two Maori religions (Ringatu)is Christian based. When Te Kooti was put in a cave on the island he had visions which he wrote in Maori, and when the visions were translated to pakeha he spoke of different books of the Bible. It is very clear that we are at a time where all people that claim to be of Christian faith, that includes Ringatu faith need to come together. Since Helen Clark has been Prime Minister, the drinking age has lowered, legalisation of prostitution, anti smacking bill became law. Also with this statement that New Zealand is Religiously nuetral, I don't think so. And on the 29th of May PM's were asked if they would like to scratch the prayer in parliament.
I thank God for Bishop Brian and Destiny Church who stands up for the true values of families and their Christian principals. People of God, that claim to be, need to come together and support each other.
Greg MDeleting the phrase "Through Jesus Christ our lord", while enabling coverage of the three great monotheistic religions, isn't all encompassing (what about: Buddhism, Zoroastrianism...)NZ is a secular society and to be honest I would support the clear separation of Church and state by not having a prayer at all.
CarolineI'm just wondering what exactly is the point of all this. I'm not a Christian myself, not religious at all actually, but it's just a fact that the history of NZ is Christian. Our laws are based in Christianity, and it's still the majority religion, albeit nominally in a lot of cases. The prayer in parliament is more a nod to history than anything else, and I don't see what's so troubling about it. Frankly, I also think our politicians could use a reminder to act decently. We seem to be so worried about possibly offending people these days, and it all just seems a bit precious to me. I don't think we should have a 'state religion' as such, but what's the big deal about a prayer? I think the government would do well to stop with the pointless legislation and concentrate on the big issues.
ImmigrantNew Zealand is universally considered a Christian country. Will changing its prayer or removing signs of Christianity make this nation more tolerant of other faiths? Tolerance must come from within and changing a traditional prayer is not the answer. After all what was Jesus's first commandment - love your neighbour as yourself. Who taught tolerance and love better than Jesus Christ?
Informed atheist You may wish to assert your freedom of religion, but I wish to assert my freedom from religion. Do not seek to impose your ideology upon me or others like me. Let NZ continue be the informed, free and secular country that it is.
Mills, North ShoreWhy our Prime Minister is so focussed on trying to take Christianity out of this Nation is beyond me. There are so many issues and other more important things that she should be worried about and yet her eyes seem fixed on ridding any sort of Christian value or belief from New Zealand. I just hope that one day she stops messing with the foundation of New Zealand and starts to be more concerned with the future of this Nation.
MiriamI just want to register my concern at the latest moves by the Labour party to ban the current prayers in Parliament. As the majority of NZers have registered as Christians surely we need to keep that identity as part of our country's heritage
Andrew CardowAs a voting public we need to be sure that our politicians are fairly representing us. We assume rightly or wrongly that both the government and the opposition are engaging in reasoned debate utilising information based on evidence. Yet these very same politicians are calling upon an unseen and imaginary force to guide them. It is very difficult to have trust in a person who in essence says believe me for I am telling the truth while at the same time saying my guidance comes from an unseen, unproven source for which there is no solid evidence of existence but I am able to discern truth from imagination. I would much rather my politicians found some evidence for their claims rather than looking to a fairy tale, albeit one that could give the Grimm brothers a run for their money, before they started working in my name. So of course there is no need for a Christian prayer, there is no need for a prayer.To borrow from the Christians. No god? good.
From an atheist New Zealand is a religiously diverse country. Rather than force everyone to conform to Christianity, can't we celebrate our differences? We should be moving towards a more religiously tolerant society (including tolerance of atheism and agnosticism), not the other way around. It is undeniable that New Zealand has a big Christian influence, but that doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to be Christian. What good does forcing people to follow a religion they do not believe in do?
Jules, TaurangaTo respond to some Your Views,I have read that suggest Bishop Brian is 'ramming' his Christianity down our throats, or forcing us to become Christians so that we 'have' to tithe to a Destiny Church, please tell me, where did you get this information from? It seems that many in our Nation love to attack Bishop Brian with only hearsay to back up their criticisms. Have you even met him to make your comments credible? Wake up New Zealand, this is not about Bishop Brian forcing his Christianity on anyone, he is the first to say we all have a free will in what we believe, it is about realising that our nation, our culture, is saturated with and is founded on Christianity. That is the focal point in why we should make it official that New Zealand is a Christian Nation. It is not to say other Religions are not welcome, however respect is the key word here to our heritage as a Christian Nation. As far as Bishop Brian goes, maybe some in our Nation would be wise to read his autobiography in order to put false accusations to rest. God Defend New Zealand.
RobAt national events such as Anzac Day and Waitangi Day, and also at all domestic and international sporting events we proudly proclaim 'God Defend New Zealand' in both Maori and New Zealand versions, this sends a clear example that New Zealand was originally united over a Christian heritage. I would almost bet my bottom dollar that Helen Clark has her sights set on removing our current national anthem, then maybe even our flag. May 'God Defend New Zealand' from her.
Jamie from ChchWhy do people feel that we need religion to define what is good and what is bad? I am an atheist, and proudly so. I have a sense of what is right and wrong, and I don't need some mythical person in the sky or some far-fetched story book to tell me what it is. You religious nuts need to get over the fact that we 'need' god and his associated story book to tell us how to live. Evolutionary biologists have proven a Darwinian connection in relation to moralistic behaviour. This is demonstrated by primates today. We see primates helping each other out, doing 'favours' for one another, exhibiting classical 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' behaviour. Religion does not make us good people, we do. Science has proven that we all have an innate desire to do good. We all should be so proud that New Zealand is a secular society, and we should do everything we can to make sure it remains that way. Yes, we are all entitled to our own beliefs and opinions, but remember- they are your beliefs. Be comfortable and strong enough in yourself to not impose them on others. As John Lennon said- 'Imagine no Religion' &no 9/11, no Iraq war, no Crusades, no Salem Witch Trials, no Inquisition&
Estelle, North ShoreMy whole family went up to Waitangi on Tuesday. We are not members of the Destiny church. However, I felt compelled to go and make a stand against Helen Clark's unacceptable actions. She has no right or mandate from the nation to make decisions about a National Religion. Surely, it is plain for all to see that New Zealand has a Christian heritage, both Pakeha and Maori. Whether we go down that road in the future is for the people of Aotearoa to decide, not Helen Clark. Any opinion poll short of a referendum will not suffice. The Human Rights Commission is funded by the government. Their statements should not surprise us. I am offended as a citizen of this nation (not just as a Christian) that somehow politicians feel they have the authority to change laws according to their agendas and own personal beliefs. Surely it is time for the Nation to say enough is enough.
Ralf SchrubaIn this age of religious diversity there should - of course - not one particular religion be established as state religion. It would kind of exclude all those with other - or no - belief(s).Therefore - again of course - the prayer should be cancelled.
RickHere goes the Labour Party on another mission of stupidity. As if the smacking bill was not enough. But then again it's the rejected Margaret Wilson - Labour's core socialist. What else could we expect!
Jesus RulesWoohooo!!! Way to Go Bishop Brian Tamaki....you Rock!!! Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life!!
Kathy Hill, currently in Storrs CT, USAThe pakeha New Zealanders that came over to this country may have had a predominantly Christian viewpoint. However, Christianity has declined in New Zealand, and now there are many alternative faiths, and many people who live life without needing to believe in any faith at all. New Zealand should stand by the most basic rule "do unto others...". Not by arcane laws written for a different people, in a different time. Jesus Christ is certainly not my lord, and not the lord of most people I know. I am amazed and embarrassed that this prayer has lasted this long in this otherwise great, secular nation.
KerrynIf 'Jesus Christ our Lord' is removed, will 'God defend NZ' then be removed? It is one thing to be tolerant of other faiths, but why pray to other gods when they are dead? Do we want dead gods having authority over NZ? It is a brilliant prayer which is not offensive to anyone.Why fix what isn't broken?
Religion is personalReligion is a personal choice and should stay out of the public arena. Why should I have to listen to people go on about their beliefs? Would a Christian, for that matter, any religion, be interested in listening to me if I did not believe? If I was to tell people that I had an Imaginary friend called 'Bob' who was with me everywhere I went, people would think I was mad! So why is it any different with people who believe in a fictional person like Jesus? And there is no proof Jesus existed except in the Bible. And the bible was written a couple of hundred years after Jesus' supposed death. Emperor Constantine (read your history ignorant people)wanted one religion to control the Roman Empire and "made" Christianity the "official" religion to control the people, just the same way as Brian Tamaki is doing now, plus he will want a tithe. ..
CeceliaI can see a lot of people getting upset and taking cheap shots at the man Brian Tamaki. Sadly, people are missing is the main point. Fact: The Prime Minister Helen Clark produced a statement pronouncing us a "Religiously Diverse" nation. This is not true.She organised a faith forum at Waitangi. Most didn't even know this was happening. Lets comment on Helen's hidden agenda. What is she up to? Why did she see it necessary to pronounce NZ a religiously diverse nation, and get it in writing... What is her agenda? What are the implications of pronouncing NZ a religiously diverse nation? Is this not her attempt to wipe out all Christian based values so she and all her cohorts can govern freely. So much of NZ's history is based on biblical Christian beliefs and values. Does her pronouncing us a religiously diverse nation not aim to erode the values that many New Zealanders hold dear to their hearts. Already there is talk about getting rid of prayer in Parliament and the national anthem. New Zealand is heading for a fall if this is where she is taking us.
Zpete Mt WellingtonChristianity is a way of life, taught by Christ, hence Christianity. It is not a religion as such.Many religions practice Christianity.Keep the prayer.
Jakes AucklandHelen Clark and her followers appear adamant to force their own non-Christian beliefs onto New Zealanders. If NZ does not have a Christian heritage, then this country is full of hypocrites. Easter (remembering Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection) and Christmas (remembering Christ's birth) are observed as statuary holidays by ALL New Zealanders. How did these days become part of NZ if not through its heritage? Secondly, to change Parliament's Christian prayer to make it inclusive of other faiths, is totally nonsensical. For a Christian there is only one God. All other gods are pagan ones. Faiths cannot mix. Ask a Muslim. Those who do believe it's ok to mix faiths, even some misdirected pseudo-Christians might believe it, do not understand the first thing about faith and beliefs. The requirements to be a true Christian are quite unequivocally stated in the source document, the Bible. The source document has never been and will never be a UN originated, watered down feel-good-no-substance declaration. Parliament's Christian prayer should remain unchanged and where it is. However, if the PM and her fellow non-believers intend to once again do something against the wishes of the greater NZ population, then remove the prayer. Please don't water it down or mix it with non-Christian beliefs.
Cathy TaylorA Christian Nation celebrates Christmas & Easter, therefore we a Christian nation. This is not negotiable. This is very bad for the economy. Visitors to New Zealand must integrate into our culture not us into theirs..
MattI am a young man, I think it would be terrible if they changed the prayer in parliament. Whatever your beliefs are, it is a tradition and just because we are a young country does not mean we should throw away and change all of our tradition's. For me it is just like when people wanted to change the flag! Just leave it alone. Many people talk about wanting to include minority groups and religions, but I know if you asked them, they do not mind and most are upset that we are changing so much 'for them' when they have not ask us too change! Then we end up with Bishop Brian! I do not go to church.
Alan AKL We need to remember the basis of our society - Christian principles and yes we can be inclusive without compromising this basic tenet of our beliefs.Too much focus is placed on political correctness, yet religious freedom and tolerance is not afforded in many countries.
NidarI do not believe in any God although I admire people who are able to have religious faith. I can not see why any country needs to have a religion, let alone an official one. People need to be kind(er) to each other. You do not need religion for this.
Ian Luxmore35% of New Zealand is non religious and this has grown by over 50% from 1996. New Zealanders are slowly waking up and we don't need or want a state religion.Besides, how would you choose? Sure Anglicans are the most common religion, but they lost over 100,0