KEY POINTS:
Here is an earlier selection of Your Views:
J H Jenje
The prayer in Parliament should be removed as the actions of our MP's are a mockery to the words of the prayer and they do not follow what the 'ask' for.Adjusting the words will also be 'adjusting' Got to fit into what they want Him to be and now who he is. This government cannot dictate to God how He is to be represented.
Mark from Auckland
All religion should be kept far away from Government. If people want to practice it in their own lives then that's their right. Government should never look to magical, mystical and supernatural beings of any kind in any of their duties. A prayer before parliament compromises the government's credibilty. Religion does not own morals, so the world won't fall apart without religion, it would be a far better place.
MCAC (Whangarei)
Helen will only act on this whim to do away with the parliamentary prayer if there is no adverse public reaction to the idea. It's all about her ideology and votes and not about dependency on a Divine God. This is just another step towards a society that is godless.
whar
Yes New Zealand should remain a state religion!Are people really short sighted or can one not see by taking that away and allowing anything and everything come to this country we open ourselves to all types of problems maybe not for us who are here today but for those who come after us...our childrens children. What type of future will New Zealand have?.You need only look at other countries that have strong religious faiths and see what happens to you if you declare you are of a different faith, will you live out the remaining week? I accept that there are other faiths and beliefs and that's fine but why change something our forefathers fought for and stood up to declare.God defend New Zealand not Gods defend New Zealand!, there really is only one state religion in New Zealand and that is and will always remain Christianity!
Steve, Auckland
It's not about forcing people to adopt a religion, it's recognising our heritage. Australia, Britain, America, Canada, all Christian Nations. The prayer is valuable for one very specific purpose. To remind the politicians that they are accountable to a Higher Power. People have been saying that 'only 55 per cent of kiwis ticked "Christianity" as their religion'. That's what's known as a "majority", and it looks like more kiwis are picking 'Jesus' than 'Helen'.For the record, I'm a Christian (and proud of it), but disagree with Brian Tamaki's methods.
Michael
Many moral obligations are said to be Christian based. I don't think that is fair. Christians just had to write them down, so they don't forget its wrong to kill, whereas the rest of us, just know that already, because we are stronger people in our own right and don't need to be told by some book what is good and what is bad.
Michael
I'm a born and bred Kiwi, and I couldn't care less about Jesus God and the rest of that stuff. Putting aside all the other religions in New Zealand, what about those of us who don't want N.Z to carry any sort of religious label? Why does a country have to be under a religious state? I don't force my non-religious beliefs on you, so do not force your religion on me.
Sumit
I immigrated to New Zealand from India 2 years ago.The president of India is a Muslim,The prime minister a Sikh and the previous Defence minister a Christian and india was suppposedly a Hindu majority country. My Father is a Hindu and my Mother a Catholic.We have national holidays in Christmas, easter, Ramzan and the Hindu Holidays.In short India has national holidays for the major religions. In India I used to go to the local temple with my father,on Sundays a church service with my grandmother and on ramzan I break bread with a Muslim friend of mine. Reading all the views I just couldn't stop smiling in disbelief that there is a debate of such sort in a country like New Zealand "A first world country". People at home and overseas would be in disbelief if they knew that there are people in NZ who would want this nation to turn into a christian state.This is sad in the 21st century. India has had its fair share of religious upheavals and conflicts specially between Hindus and Muslims but in today's world as we progress we are being cynical and taking a step backwards here in NZ. I think we need to have more urgent debate on pressing issues such as the rising scene of violent crimes in spite of NZ being voted world no-2 as a peaceful state. We can shrug it off and say there are crimes in other countries as well but I think there is a lot more crime for a small nation like ours.
Greg
This present Government's obsessive focus on systematically dismantling our nation's Christian framework, is both alarming and distressing. It seems certain the Labour Party know their days in power are numbered and are now pushing through their ungodly idealogies with renewed urgency. An associated tragedy is that some well-meaning but misguided mainstream church leaders are giving credence to these ideas.
Disillusioned ex-Anglican
I have read almost every Your View presented thus far. Its interesting but not unexpected. Helen Clark the agnostic believes by implementing what she is suggesting,will bring peace. Let me remind everyone, " Jesus said, Peace I give to you not the peace that come from the world." The Devil knows the art of deception and he is well able to make something look good,sound good and present them in such a way that it will draw the vulnerable, and anybody else that is easily lead.Be warned that in the days ahead if this is accepted by government, we will reap the consequences. Jesus was not slow in speaking out against the So called church leaders of His day. He called them ,"you vipers, You snakes". I wonder why. Brian Tamaki is not the problem. He is just the messenger. If the man upstairs chooses a messenger he does not get another man to choose him. Go National.
Dave
We recogise Maori as the indigenous people of New Zealand. Similarly, recognising our Christian heritage acknowledges where we have come from. Helen Clark wants to deny our nation's Christian heritage and undermine the influence of Christianity - but she won't get rid of the Treaty or deny our historical links with Britain even if we do end up being a republic. Nor should she.New Zealand has more of a Christian heritage than any other belief system - examples of that are of course our public holidays at Christmas and Easter, the flag, the national anthem and the parliamentary prayer. Some would also include the Treaty of Waitangi, and it is pertinent to point out that without missionaries like Henry Williams, the Treaty may not have been signed by the tribes. We have a public holiday for that as well - Waitangi Day.Once we have declared that Christianity is irrelevant to our heritage, of course the next step is to get rid of the Parliamentary Prayer.. then the National Anthem, then the flag ( with the star-shaped crosses), then Karakia... oh no, cant have that, can we, Maori spirituality will become the new state religion - and we dont want a state religion, even if we do want to recognise the Treaty as part of our constitution. So if we keep the Treaty, its good enough to recognise that we have a Christian heritage as well.It doesn't mean we have to subscribe to a Christian belief system any more than we have to speak Maori. Do you know we have two official languages in New Zealand? And guess what - English is not one of them. And there is more people in this country who subscribe to Christianity than can speak either of the two official languages.
Sam young father (Auckland)
NZ already has a state religion & that is Christianity look at the words within our national anthem, we celebrate Christmas & Easter & they are recognised as public holidays, Sunday is & has been regarded as a day where people in NZ go to church. Christianity has always been our state religion Helen Clark is only trying to deny an undeniable truth that's all!
Lofty
Making New Zealand a non-Christian country is just another mad ploy of the loony left before they get thrown from office. Multiculturalism is a failed, left-wing ideology yet NZ, a living museum of old ideologies is out to ram it home.MMP is part of the problem. It has certainly given minority parties a voice, but it allows national decisions to be made by list MPs unanswerable for their conscious votes at the ballot box. As a South Islander, I must say I now feel more at home in (also diverse) Melbourne and Sydney than I do in Auckland. The Aussies are assimilating their new migrants in a civilised way. Multiculturalists would have you believe we are headed for a creative paradise. But it is more likely to be a fragmented New Yugoslavia of the South Seas.
Godzone or Helenzone
I suppose this is the prayer they want to replace it with!The new prayer: Almighty Helen, humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy Helens name, the maintenance of all religions and injustice, the honour of Helen, and the politicians welfare, peace, and tranquillity of New Zealand, through Helen Clark our Lord. Amen.
Niki(Gisborne)
"God of nations at thy feet, in the bonds of love we meet, hear our voices we entreat, God defend our Free Land. Guard pacific triple stars, from the shafts of strife and war, make our Praises heard afar, God defend New Zealand".Helen Clark is ruining NZ & our kids! Prostitution as a career & encouraging civil unions, demeans the standards, principles, morals & values (all Christian founded) that us NZ'ers want planted in our kids! Now I read MPs are being asked to scrap daily prayer! What national anthem should we sing? NZ's clearly says 'God, defend our Free Land', 'Make our praises heard afar', 'God, defend NZ' Shame on all those who don't show up for God but certainly expect God to show up for them. God asks, 'Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? Who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity'(Psalm 94:1-16), God certainly elected the right man (warrior) & chose the right kingdom peop le (army) for His purpose - Bishop Brian & Destiny! 'Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord' (Joshua 24:15) Come on Gods army Attention.
Martin (Wellington)
Christianity as a religion is believed in and touches members of every culture within New Zealand. It is clearly our predominant faith and while we acknowledge and respect that others may follow a different faith why should a political correctness drive remove references to Christianity. We often question why some other faiths are so intolerant of Christianity and / or the western world in general to the extent they would gladly rid the world of us (the extremists to be sure). While we should seek to continue a policy of tolerance in the hope that such faiths learn tolerance as well - should we be forced to deny ourselves our own religion to achieve this goal. Such actions are seen more as a sign of weakness rather than an offering of peace and understanding. It's absurd that on one hand we support the growth and expansion of other religions and on the other hand we seek to remove our predominant religion on the other side. No one is asking everyone in New Zealand to 'see the light' or 'become a believer' however they should not deny our history and the influences of religion on our society. It's about time our Government stopped supporting the minority at every turn and actually listened to the majority every once and a while. Wouldn't that be a surprise. Amazingly I can foresee this government dropping the Christian references and keeping the reference to the Queen!
Old Salt (Gulf Harbour)
New Zealand existed as a land mass , part of Godwana for a zillion years, it became occupied by Polynesian exiles who drifted upon it in the last millennium, but Sir, the Nation of New Zealand was "founded" and "built" since 1820 by its European immigrant settlers who brought to these shores 2000 years of civilisation and a Christian background that permeates the very democracy, the laws, the sense of justice, the essence of our lives, its method and practice of government, it even dominates the calendar by which Government denotes the days it will sit. Whilst not specifically pilgrims in the same sense as in the Americas, these nation building pioneers were not much different, they came enmasse from protestant roots and set the Anglican church as the head of their state to guide the building of a nation. The Christian creed upholds peace, it upholds tolerance, not as any form of acceptance but as only forgiveness of ignorance, it does not tolerate having multiple gods, multiple or godless beliefs, sin or lies and it does this, in spite of its many failings, by being god fearing.Our government Sir, has a long history of lies, and a regrettable history of some sin, to make it entirely godless and worse, enveloping of other gods, is to transgress a basic mosaic command of all Christian law and render the government devoid of the right of any authority to govern.
Philip
Why do you want to tamper with the prayer? Is there any need to undo the Christian heritage of this nation. Whether anyone agrees or not, Christianity is the main-stream religion followed by the majority. Those who follow other faiths are just a small minority and is there a need to have a inclusive prayer where you have to invoke the names of their gods. It is such irrational behaviour that provokes Bishop Tamaki to go to the other extreme.
Bri (Auckland)
We keep what we have already - Wilson and her cohorts can go take a jump at themselves We are a Christian nation and you better believe it. How else do we tolerate theses idiots in the beehive? They have done more social engineering than any other and for what gain- their own " religious " agenda. Stop meddling and allow people to follow their own way of supporting their spiritual life.
Godzone or Helenzone
In Helen We Trust. Definitely not!In God We Trust. Definitely more now than ever before!
amy bathgate
NewZealand has been Christian Based since the beginning, even our national anthem is a prayer to God, changing New Zealand's status isn't just about being more diverse it takes away a big part of who we are as a country.I strongly appose changing the official state religion.
Kay McKelvie
I do not believe any religion should be our "state religion" NZ has never been a religious state and neither should it ever be. States under the control of religion invariable end in civil war. We have long held the NZ human rights act as the basis for freedom under its various forms in this country and long may it remain.
Michael
I think it is about time that the old fashioned prayer in Parliament was brought up to date. An affirmation of the things in the prayer would have more impact on those listening (ie MPs) than invoking God anyway. Here's hoping they really do "lay aside all private and personal interests"!
Smeatz (Auckland)
With all due respect to our beloved politcians, the "Prayer" has to go! This archaic practice (IMHO) of speaking in an utterly irrelevant language (i.e. "old English") no-one even uses except within the confines of those partially tax-payer funded medieval playgrounds and/or monuments to the terminally deluded we call "churches" is, to coin madam speaker's own terminology, "out of order! Why? Well let's look at the real relevance of prayer in parliament today...Hmmm... prayers didn't stop Muldoon or Douglas from screwing up; or home loan interest rates from reaching 20 per cent+ in the late 1980's; or Bollard from sadistically pushing the cash rate ever higher; or NZ from slipping into recession in the early 1990's; or politicians from being charged with fraud with monotonous regularity; or NZ from plunging to the bottom of the OECD pecking order for almost anything you care to name...Oh, and as for Helen Clark and the gang... no amount of 'prayer' will save the Labour Party come the next election!Supplementary question your honour: "Pray do tell... What logical, practical, economy-boosting reason is there for prayers in parliament?"
Edwood. T.
We live in a country that is truly the land of the free more than I care to say about the US of A, and the good part about our country is, it's multi cultural & multi ethnic religions, not just Christian faith. Mr Tamati is in no position to call this country to be recognised as a country of Christian believers, it would only mock other religions, and at the end of the day we all pray to God, who moves in mysterious ways. Tamati, you should be serving and caring your flock instead of stripping them of their earnings..
Maree, North Shore
Our National Anthem asks God to defend us, bless us, give us peace, guard us, and make us faithful unto him. Of course we have a rich Christian heritage....read the words! Perhaps Helen Clark is looking to abolish the Anthem as well?
Shells, Camp Columba
This nation is robbing the blessing that God has given them. The second we stop talking to God, and giving him glory is the second we regret it as a nation. Our nation is one of the coveted nations in the world. Look at the Land God has blessed us with, the people he has blessed us with, and look into the future if we say we don't need him anymore. How foolish of this nation.When you sing God defend New Zealand. What exactly do you want him to Defend?I hope and pray this will not happen to this blessed nation. Prayer is Power! The only Power, God's Power!
Scott Lelievre
Let's keep the state prayer. It's been around for years and it does remind Parliament of something greater than themselves. If it isn't broke don't fix it.
On that note -- could the government possibly settle down and stop trying to change everything and legislate about everything? Family life, our religious life -- is there any area that our government does not feel qualified and obliged to legislate for?
Macca
In the last census, just 55 per cent of New Zealanders ticked the Christian box. This was 5 per cent lower than the earlier census, and suggests that barely half of New Zealanders will be Christians in the next census, less than four years ago.When 2 million out of 4 million people in our country aren't Christians, how can we call ourselves a Christian state? And why should our MPs, half of whom are not Christian, have to stand up and recite a prayer they don't believe in?And why should I, as an athiest, have to sing "God Defend New Zealand", be forced to go to Church (this happened to me at school), and have to listen to Christian prayers, mantras, etc, at official state events?All of this "official Christian" stuff smacks of hypocrisy and divisiveness. I don't believe a word of it, and don't want it rammed down my throat in my own country, where I should be free to have my own beliefs.
Kabir (Wellington)
New Zealand is a nation whos political, and legal values have derived from a Christian based English system. Some of the values of that system have been tarnished, but some; like the prayer is still custom and reminds us of our past. The reading of the prayer before every Parliamentary session casts no harm to any other path of faith. All of those who are making noise about it should learn to assimilate. Being a New Zealand Sikh, I have attended schools with Christian values for my whole life. I respect that those who are brought up with the religious values of this country, choose to keep those values. Glyn Carpenter knows what he is talking about, and if people were to read beyond the words written, they would understand that no harm or motif to discriminate is presented.
John Te kiri
I agree with the stand that was made. Many Maori may or may not realise but the first Maori king was sworn in on the bible and he said that the generations to come will serve the God of the bible and so on and so on. I know as a Maori and a Christian that it is very important that people dont get the wrong idea about the stand that was made. Bishop Brian Tamaki stood for all those 100s of years that New Zealand has been a Christian nation. Just because it hasnt been recognised before, doesn't mean it wasn't there. Helen Clark is tying her darndest to pull down families(note that she isn't a parent) and doesn't listen to the people. I urge you to think long and hard about which way you are voting. Christians of this nation need to unite. One body with many parts.
Jason
The question of a state religion is very misleading. What we are dealing with here is political craftsmanship. Telling the masses we don't want a state religion is a very clever way of giving people the wrong impression of what this issue is really about. The protest at Waitangi had nothing to do with a state religion but it has everything to do with the preservation of our countries Christian heritage, without which there is no guarantee of the present liberties we enjoy remaining in the future.
Mark
The declaration is clear: "Christianity has played and continues to play a formative role in the development of New Zealand in terms of the nation's identity, culture, beliefs, institutions and values."If anything it fails to acknowledge the positive role also played by other faith communities, e.g. Julius Vogel of the Jewish faith and one of NZ's first premiers.Our early settlers came mostly from the UK where Anglicanism is still the established church. They knew at first hand the difficulties that caused not just for people of other faiths, but also for believing Anglicans who wanted to be free of the taint of privilege and establishment.Brian Tamaki has asserted that in acknowledging Christianity as our state religion there would be consequences. For instance the Bible would be the only book allowed for swearing oaths. Why deny using the Koran or the Hebrew scriptures (or other books) to those of other faiths.Let's have respect for all rather than a pecking order of faiths.
Matthew Pilott
Given that a line of the prayer is "laying aside all private and personal interests" I am surprised John Key doesn't want the prayer changed. Private and personal attacks are National's main policy platform these days, instead of debating real issues.NZ is Multi-faith and this should be represented in any prayer (no prayer should be held, NZ is a secular state and not a Christian one.
Hannah
Scrap the prayer. It is archaic. Just because it has always been that way doesn't make it right. If John Key's reasoning 'its always been that way so why change it' had been applied throughout NZ history women would still be denied the vote. His sort of statements show how fearful our politicians are of offending the Christian right. Big ups to the first MP who is honest enough to come out and say they don't believe in a God.
MCAC (Whangarei)
I admire the courage of Brian Tamaki to stand up for the idea that we are a 'Christian country'. Our laws and ideals are based on Christian values, which have been handed down by our forebears. This should be acknowledged. What's the problem with calling ourselves Christian? This is not an embarrassment but something to be proud of. Part of being "Christian" is the ability to embrace other religions in our society. I guess if we were a Muslim country we may not be able to tolerate & include other religions. Thank God our religion does not demand that kind of intolerance.
K
I agree with Norm from the North.....we simply dont need any Christian prayers in the political frontage!! What a stupid and pointless thing to do. We are a modern country so lets get rid of that convention and actually start running this country!
Lyn (Auckland)
NZ should remain under a Christian banner, even if everyone doesn't proclaim to be Christian because most people would not argue with the basic law of the 10 commandments which is written on everyone's heart so that each person knows right from wrong. Going under a secular banner will mean these basic laws of life will be thrown out and anarchy will take over.
Ra (Rotorua)
NZ was founded on Christianity and Christianity should remain our state religion. Christianity was not imposed upon people yet the tolerance of other religions is being imposed. Let the other religions remain in their states.
Simon (Christchurch)
In 1854 the prayer reflected the belief of the dominant culture at the time. Today everything is completely different. Many people find the idea of appealing to an imaginary despot in the sky ludicrous. Parliament is a serious affair, starting it off with a prayer is like rattling a few old bones dancing a jig and expecting it to rain. No state religion, and no prayer at parliament.
Auckland
As far as I remember, those with "no religion" like myself were the largest "religious" group in the last census.Personally I get sick of hearing religious people, and other people like the pope complaining about everything that sectors of society do. We don't complain that they go to church, so why should they complain if my friends are gay, or that I don't think that a natural family automatically constitutes male andfemale and their 2 kids.Do away with the prayer!
Greg
The idea of having a prayer to open each sitting of the New Zealand House of Representatives is insulting.First of all, it insults our MPs. If they need to be reminded to act morally, then surely there is a problem there? Secondly, it is insulting to voters. We put the MPs in their seats, not "God" or "Jesus" or "Allah" or whatever deity one believes in. Surely MPs should be reminded of their obligation to us, the people? Thirdly, it is insulting to all non-Christians. Personally, I am an Atheist. And it is demeaning to have your own elected representative body reject your viewpoint each and every day.The prayer should go and be replaced with a reminder to serve the people of New Zealand that elected each MP.
Ray Looker
This is just another example of Helen Clark's and Margaret Wilsons's social agenda to destroy family life and make New Zealand a communist dominated country. It is so blatantly obvious coming right on the heals of Clarke's recent speech at Waitangi. It also throws doubt on the integrity and neutrality of the speaker, she is obviously still very much in collusion with Clark.I am not a Christian as such but believe this is a Christian country and why should we pander to Muslims and give away traditions that have that we have had for so long, for make no mistake , that is what this is all about. Why does Clark insist on driving us further down this track, when other similar countries have found that embracing Muslims only leads to much worse problems.
Christian Greatgrand mother
"He that honours Me I will honour" found in 1 Samuel 2v30. God's word is faithful. It is "righteousness that exalteth a nation." Proverbs 14v34. Yes give God His place of honour.
Concerned Parent
I think the only wording that should be changed is the Thy and beseech Thee to make it more in line with today's modern language but not change the actual meaning/context of what its meant to say. Having said that, if these politicians are praying this but do not love God through Jesus Christ our Lord, they are only paying lip service. Actions speak louder than words.Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.And I know, you don't want to mess with God. You just have to look at the nations that do not honour God(through the Lord Jesus Christ)
Joanne Robertson
God's big enough to defend his name. Although I admire Brian and his team for standing up to Helen after she threatened the Churches Tax free exemption if anyone did. Go Destiny.
Tree (Otara)
All religions are pretty much based on the same thing...the greater good, compassion and a creator, something that all people believe in (or not)...We all have a stance on religion. It is people that use religion and turn it into a fanatical circus. As one man said 'Religion should be the conscious of politics'... For New Zealand to continue to be a blessed country we should still keep to the lord's prayer in parliament (do not take out names to be P.C!). It seems the government has gone P.C crazy. Leave things be, NZ is a beautiful country and we do have a religion whatever it is.
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