KEY POINTS:
Here is an earlier selection of Your Views:
Adrian (Auckland)
New Zealand's approach to separation of Church and State is unique in the world. We allow people to express their faith in public and at the same time the State doesn't endorse one religion over another. Going down the road that the French or Americans have adopted is not appropriate for New Zealand as we have never had the religious issues that these countries and others have had. The call to abolish the prayer by some is merely their personal preference and conforms to their belief system. Atheists must accept that some New Zealanders have a faith and that they wish to express that in public. By removing all expressions of faith in public the State is endorsing one belief system over another. Not allowing people to express their faith in public is just as wrong as forcing people into adopting a religion. Atheists have made a choice that they are free to make but they cannot force others into making the same choice or conforming to their belief practices.
Ian Morine
Just remember, all those that are so opposed to change of any sort, nothing grows, improves or developes if it does not change. Change is often the hardest part of life to accept, hence the negative reactions from most writing into this column. One writer said he was a young man, but thought things should stay the same as they have been for the past 180 years, prayers in Parliment, the flag etc. I used to think that too until the school of hard knocks beat that viewpoint out of me. Change is good and should be embraced and cherished because that is how we will improve and become more intelligent as an independent nation, no longer dependant on mother England. Also if you don't or won't change, how can you correct past mistakes. Just look at American foreign policy today, driven by far-right so called Christian values, they keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. There is very little sign, that this so-called Christian-based country is going to stop making the same mistakes anytime soon.
History is a great teacher, but that's all. The important lesson is change or die, and therefore become completely irrelevant in the process, which is what will happen to the intolerant Christian America.
Anne Rennie
As has been said before, this debate is political craft rather than real. To recognise that NZ is built on Christian values and want to keep them is not to propose that Christianity should be enshrined in law and dictated to the people. No-one suggested it be made law - just acknowledged as the value system on which our life here is based. Those objecting to any religion should be advocating no prayer at all rather than attacking Christianity. As for religion causing wars etc, neither religion nor God did that - men and women did - and still do. New Zealand has a particular culture which I would like preserved and that includes religious freedom. Many NZers, especially European ones, seem to have got into the habit of treating themselves and their culture with contempt and be prepared to throw it away. Why? It has served us extremely well up to now! Those in power are creating a society that removes life support for people who haven't paid their power bill - not to mention all! The others deprived of health care, etc at present! Is this the 'human values' outside of Christianity you speak of?
Geoff
NZ is a multi-cultural/multi-religious country. Why would we give a reason to be prejudiced against the multi-cultural society that we have? Bishop Tamaki says "Chirstianity is a family value,", but maybe he should try this quote, "Greed is not a family value."
Michael
Should we have a state religion? Isn't that what the Taleban tried to enforce in Afghanistan? What a stupid idea.
Kim (Auckland)
New Zealand multi-culturalism and has many religions. To acknowledge Christianity as New Zealand's only religion is very close-minded and I think Brian Tamaki needs to take a good look at his Christian attitude and be more tolerant towards other religions and cultures.
Wombat
Keep all religion out of politics, that means all. We should have no state religion but be prepared to suffer all faiths equally. They are all about control anyway.
Hamish from ChCh
Must keep the Christian prayer going in Parliament. 1 of those tools to keep 'em honest.
Dan
Bishop Brian, George Bush, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson: they are all Christian nutters. Let the life of Jesus, and all the prophets of goodness in the various faiths act as role models, but let us not be driven by the self-serving ravings of a few. They are giving Christianity a bad name.
Stuart (Singapore)
New Zealand as a nation clearly has a Christian heritage, and we should continue to respect that. "God defend New Zealand" has been our countries entreaty to God from the first, and there is no reason to change this, or opening parliament with a prayer, or any other part of our heritage, because of this current debate. It is a logical premise that having no declared state religion leaves the state in the position that allows them to treat all religions equally. And that is fine if it means that we as a people desire to treat others as we would treat ourselves, or better still, if it means that we are seeking to love our neighbors as the Lord has commanded. But having a Christian heritage does not make us Christians. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ does that. And this is the logical premise that Brian Tamaki would do better to focus on. Bringing more New Zealanders into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and leaving politics to the politicians is more likely to achieve the end that he seeks.So Helen 1, Brian 0.
Hira
We should continue with the prayer in parliament. Lord knows we need it .
Nathan
Brian Tamaki his issues. Many of them. For him to be any sort of respectable man, he needs to earn respect and stay out of the media. Do you ever see the Pope in the Herald or on the evening news in such harsh light as Tamaki? Answer: No! Question: Why? Answer: Because, although not everyone likes him, at least he doesn't sell his church in a way similiar to the 'As Seen on TV' products - "Join Destiny Church now and get a pass to heaven, for only $2399.99! Limited time only - Terms and conditions apply, which means that if you're gay or a Muslim, you're stuffed! Call us now."
Liz (Auckland)
Our Christian heritage is just that - our heritage.But we don't live in the past any more, even though Brian Tamaki might . There are 1.3 million of us non-religious folk in New Zealand now. We are the second largest group after the Christians if you lump the catholics and protestants together. Just because we are non-religious doesn't mean we are non-people.We ought to have our views reperesented and I think the Human Rights Commission are doing a very bad job of it at present.
Terry Donovan
The prayer should remain. What needs to change is the attitude of the politicians who pray. Brian Tamaki is right. Our country is firmly rooted in Christianity, and I'm grateful for this.
Expat in Sacramento, USA
I once read that fewer than 10 per cent of media employees had any religious affiliation. Perhaps it helps explain why pronouncements from James Dobson,(US),or Mr. Tamaki and the Exclusive Brethren et al., are continually reported as if these self-appointed spokespersons represent Christianity. Such false prophets embarrass those of us who believe their values neglect weightier biblical concern for issues such as poverty, justice and peace. The so-called Christian right's agenda is hardly an answer to the question, "What would Jesus do?" Would Jesus approve cuts in aid for the poor, tax subsidies for the richest; pillaging of the environment for short-term profit? Not all Christians believe that evolution excludes God or that faith demands ignorance of science. Few believe we're persecuted for our faith or that Christmas is endangered. Many of us oppose official school prayer because we believe the separation of church and state should protect our faith from government interference. Media ignorance (or laziness?) does a disservice to the "silent majority" of Christians and leaves the outside observer with an inaccurate and misleading impression of our faith.
Barbara
I agree with Helen we have a secular Government don't change it, keep religion out of politics. One third of our population state they have no religion in the last census; this means that this group is bigger than any one religious group. How about we make religion pay taxes like any other business then we shall see their power quickly dwindle. Make NZ a better place ban religion they only bring death and destruction check out the rest of the world.
Christian Believer
I chose to be a permanent resident of New Zealand some ten years ago. I was born in Singapore now one of the most successful nation states in Asia with a standard of living equal to Japan. I chose New Zealand because I believed it to be a Christian country. Its founding fathers lived and worked by Christian principles and worshipped God as evident in the proliferation of churches whose steeples gladden my heart as I see them reaching toward heaven. I am so thankful that they saw fit to start their sessions in Parliament, beseeching God to guide them in His infinite wisdom and protect New Zealand against the forces of evil. Today these forces have been allowed to pollute society in the name of so-called liberalisation - a loss of morals and no sense of shame for abhorrent acts and lifestyles that are an abomination to God as stated in the Bible. Now more than ever as we, and of more concern, the young people are assailed by immoral behaviour of leaders and their peers I pray that the present prayers said as they precede each Parliamentary session be preserved and upheld for all that is good, decent and worthy of God's grace and mercy that He has shown to this country.
Ed- Expat kiwi
The canard that religion has been the cause of war brasses me off. The lust for what the other guy's got is the cause of war, mixed in with no small amount of hatred of those who are different. Religion has more often than not been a force for peace. But the idea of NZ adopting a national religion is unwise to say the least. Religion is a matter of personal conviction. I am a Christian and value the freedom I have to follow my beliefs without the State being involved. Forcing people to conform or even to just live under a State that imposes a national religion, even if I might think it is the right religion, is just going to breed resentment and turn people off to the truth and love that Jesus preached. By all means win people to your beliefs by practicing them without discrimination or self-righteousness. Win others by your sample and love. Don't be ashamed of your beliefs and convictions but don't impose them on others..
Erich
Having read farther down in the comments, I have to say I got a good chuckle out of all the people who say that justice, helping people out, not harming others, and other commonly held 'good' or 'moral' values 'derive from Christianity', as if no one in the world held any of those beliefs before Christ came along. All sorts of ancient writings and oral traditions from all sorts of cultures show this just wasn't the case. Claiming all of the better qualities of humanity come from Christianity just because they were added by the writers of the Bible is about as silly as claiming that slavery, intolerance, hatred, sexism, and the like are all 'inherently Christian values' as well. Psalms 137:9 'Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!' and the ever popular Matthew 10:34 'Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother...' and endless other verses of intolerance and hatred. Thankfully, the vast majority of Christians never actually read most of the Bible..
Luke (Auckland)
Although it sounds ethically right and accommodating on the surface to have no state religion,.... I wonder if the average New Zealander would really want other religious beliefs and mindsets to have equal influence on our society and culture over Christianity? Christianity has served us well as the moral beckon and building blocks of this great nation. Do we really want other value systems dictating the direction of our future? When we compare our country to the turmoil found in many others we discover that we are so blessed to enjoy what we have. It is actually okay to put a stake in the ground and say, "these are the values that we stand on and will defend." If we have become too afraid to make a decisive stance then we have planted our feet firmly in mid air and may find our Kiwi way of life pulled out from underneath us.
Goddess
I find it quite hilarious how so many Christians would spend their time praying and preaching the "gospel". The very gospel that preaches against hate, against affiliations with political dynamics and with spread of the gospel through example. So how do people like Brian Tamaki and the Destiny church intend to spread the gospel through example when all they do is retaliate against the government? How do they expect people to believe in Christ when they themselves do not behave in a Christ-like manner. I think the Christian community at large need to reconsider their priorities and what it means to be a Christian, and their duties as Christians to the so called people in the dark. I do not see how battling whether or not New Zealand ought be a called a Christian State has anything to do with trying to spread the gospel, which as a Christian I see as my main duty and not to create trouble. On the subject of trouble I remember one of the earlier comments stating that Christianity was the cause of many wars in the past, which is correct to an extent, and to clarify that point, I personally think that its Christianity's involvement in politics that have led to the many wars.
Erich
Seems like that leaves an awful lot of Enzeds at a disadvantage - Sikhs, Muslims, Hindu, maybe even Shinto. Oh yes, and Jews - wasn't Christ a Jew? And I'm pretty sure Christianity didn't arrive with the Maori, so it's a foreign religion too. Saying a particular religion is a state religion is a slap in the face to all of the people in the country who don't happen to be of that religion, and just adds fuel to the fires of intolerance and ignorance. Why should the state, whose interests are presumably inclusive of all citizens give special preference or acknowledgement to one particular group of citizens who happen to be of a specific faith?
Steve
The charismatic and media hungry Mr. Tamaki with his designer Armani suits, dress watches, gold rings and bracelets is a real model of this country's so-called Christian heritage - I think not ! With his carefully orchestrated 'ministry' he has created an organisation of naive followers all too willing to do what he says and donate 10 per cent (if not more ?)of their income each week into his coffers. His following makes an interesting demographic of small-minded people in a country made up of small towns and cities. The Bible itself is written by man, and the reason there are so many different 'Christian faiths' is because of man. I wonder how many of his followers really have a faith in Jesus Christ or in Mr. Tamaki himself? NZ is fast becoming a multi-cultural country of different peoples, and faiths (all children of God). It makes us a more diverse and interesting place (not just Maori, Pakeha or Destiny Church goers). Destiny Church needs to get used to that - it's not going to change (Govts. do). The ideals that Ms. Clark or Mr. Tamaki stand for do not represent the beliefs of every NZer. Ms. Clark & Mr. Tamaki should both remember this..
Kate Whiteman
I would like the prayer to remain in parliament. The wording is exactly what this current Govt needs - to put aside personal interests...including anti-Christian ones..
Kiwi abroad
I personally believe that state and any religion should be kept separate but I do believe that despite the ills and inconsistency of human failure we cannot throw away our spiritual identity that Christianity has brought to New Zealand. Unfortunately too much emphasis is put on failures of so called public Christian figures whereas each person needs to take more responsibility for their own lives. Christianity in principles has too much power and influence if it is equated with humility and being non judgemental. Given time I believe we will look at this subject more openly when live brings it challenges..
Chris, Auckland
The Labour Party is a liberal party set upon changing NZ society. Their mandate is a subtle dismantling of our social framework. The real issue at heart is a government that is elected by the people for the people but refuses to listen to the people. It is ludicrous to believe that a small number of MPs know collectively more than the majority of NZ. The fact that the current Labour government refuses to adhere to the majority of NZ'ers proves that our government is not a democratic government but a totalitarian government in disguise. Helen Clark can learn much from one great leader who said 'I must follow my people; am I not their leader.' Christianity is this nations primary religion. Just listen to our National Anthem and tell me whether I am wrong!
Michael
Great prayer. Just a pity the majority of our politicians don't follow it. Most of them would rather pray something like this. "Almighty Me, proudly acknowledging no-one but Me in all things, and always thinking only of My private and personal interests, I beseech Me to grant Me that I may conduct My affairs in this house of Mine to the glory of My wonderful name, the maintenance of Me and My justice, the honour of Me, and My welfare, peace and tranquillity for no-one but Me, through no-one but Me, Ah .... ME." No wonder this country of ours has gone downhill - what is surprising is how fast it has happened under this self-centred and godless bunch of people currently running the country.
Tenzin Chosang
This is from the 'defiled' religion - Buddhism - which I belong to. They are quotes from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness. I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion, and elimination of ignorance, selfishness, and greed.Each of us in our own way can try to spread compassion into people's hearts. Western civilizations these days place great importance on filling the human "brain" with knowledge, but no one seems to care about filling the human "heart" with compassion. This is what the real role of religion is.
Kelli, Ranui
How can anyone not stop to think that Maori already had our own spirituality before any other form of religion came to Aotearoa? Everyone who has bothered to read up on the history of NZ will know that Christianity established their religion here during the 1800's. I think it's time the government realises that just because they say something like, there is no state religion, does not mean that it's historically correct..Christian faith does not have the right to be the religion of the state, but Tikanga Maori has every right.
Combatwombat, Hastings
"A religion is a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction." True. Therefore NZ's weekend rugby is religion, brushing your teeth is religion, going to work is religion. They all involve those things to some measure. Therefore, blaming all of the world's wars & evils on religion is a falsehood, as it is mankind that fights, due to his own petty nature, struggle for power, greed, etc. (See definition of "sin"). Christ hated religion. His mission was to destroy the religious rituals man had, and replace them with a relationship with the Father God.
Gavin from Auckland
Dear Christians in favour of the Statement ;I'm not a member of Destiny but I was at Waitangi! I don't think I'm a fanatic either. I believe in the Bible. I believe in heaven and hell. I believe I am going to heaven when I die (not because I'm such a nice chap!) but because I acknowledged to God that I am a sinner. I asked the Lord into my life. I have a relationship with the only living true God. As Christians agreeing to the statement - are you saying that other religions are equal to Christianity? It is our Christian calling to save people from going to hell. Let us pray that all one day wake up and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the only true God. Was the messenger (Bishop Tamaki) wrong? If it was sent to all MPs a fortnight ago - why did we only hear today of the possible changes to the Opening Prayer in Parliament? Why was it only released after the diversity statement? Let us look past the messenger at the crux of the matter. The basis of the NZ culture is Christian values and principles. It doesn't matter where you've come from or what religion you currently practice (or not).
Richard (North Shore)
Whether you like him or not, at least Bishop Brian Tamaki is prepared to stand up and be a voice against the continual efforts of this government to remodel NZ into a society as they think it should be. Whether you are Christian or not, this country along with many others has become great because of the foundations of Christian and Biblical values - and this heritage should be respected and kept. The prime minister is showing wholesale disrespect for this heritage throwing it away in one speech, to please a tiny minority of newcomers. Wake up NZ or you'll sleepwalk your way to becoming another England or France.
Fran
In my opinion Mr Tamaki is a dangerous man with very sectarian views. I grant him that he is a very good orator- he must be to have acquired so many followers. And he has shown great interest in the wellbeing and autonomy of the Maori community. Unfortunately that is where my regard for the man ends. New Zealand society has always valued spiritual freedom. Religious persecution is what bought - and continues to bring - many people to this country. I acknowledge that for many people, their religion is a great part of their identity and that many religions share values that are of benefit to us all. However, it would be unfair to assume that Christianity is the 'superior' religion in that regard. Lets keep NZ a country that retains the right of spiritual freedom without the constant threat of sectarian religious views such as the one Mr Tamaki promotes. Let's keep this a place where I can believe in my god and you can believe in yours and neither of us have to believe in anything unless we want to. Let's keep it a place where we respect each other for our actions - for good deeds or a job well done - not just for the words we speak or the god we believe in.
Karl Rhode
New Zealand must push for a secular government. How can a government remain unbiased if its very framework is based on a single religion. It can't. Every step that removes non-secular intrusions on decision making is a step towards a more powerful and empowered government that can provide the leadership and governance this country needs to move forward as a nation. MMP is an example of balance. Removing the non-secular policies and traditions from our government is another step towards equality and balance for all.
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