KEY POINTS:
Here is a selection of Your Views:
Phil
Legalise drugs - remove profit. Make it illegal to wear gang identification of organisations that have a proven track record of criminal activity. If bars and pubs can do it, why do the general public have to put up with it. Also - up the anti-gang education in schools.
Steve
It seems that we have heard this song before. Gang violence rips its way into the headlines and a bunch of less than imaginative politicians start demanding that we get "tough" on crime. Getting "tough" being so much easier than getting smart. If we are really interested damaging criminal gangs the best strategy would be to strip away their main source of funding. We should legalize recreational drugs. It is quite clear by now that a large portion of the population is going to take recreational drugs regardless of their illegality. Persisting with prohibition simply ensures that the profits from the drug trade go to criminal enterprises. As long as law continues to protect the gangs' primary source of funding, there will continue to be extensive (and well funded) gang violence.
Nobilangelo Ceramalus
Where there's a will, and wisdom, there's a way. The government lacks both. It said that to allow smacking would be 'state-sponsored violence.' So what is it when it lets gangs be? It can define and ban certain drugs from the streets without depriving the medical profession, even when the drugs are the same, such as morphine. There is a very long list of places where the boundary between good and bad is well defined. What is the difficulty here? Cannot? No, will not.
Disgusted parent
How could they be able to live with themselves, knowing full well that it was by their actions that a innocent toddler was killed,yes killed, you see news about young ones getting shot overseas but you never think it will happen here. Disgusted, They dont deserve to be imprisoned they deserve to be tortured...
Gangs I was bought up in that sort of environment but for the sake of family stayed out of it because they dont care about life and most of them are Maori,I know whoever fired the fatal shot you will not sleep at night. You will have night mares and if you have children of your own think of what you would be going through right now if it was yours... I pray for mercy on your life but you must face up to the consequences of your actions, you fired the shot you must pay..
An Asian
"Yes, the causes are complex and difficult chiefly because they relate to the loss of mana that any colonised people experience, yet until we all accept that we all need to change our society this stuff will continue. " This is the most ridiculous load of crap I have heard in a while, this along with the rest of his points about the marginalisation of Maori. I'm an Asian from a reasonably well off family, my parents sent me to Onehunga High School in Auckland instead of a posh school so that I wouldn't grow up to be a snob and develop bad habits. I saw first hand how disruptive some of these students are, It has nothingto do with the teachers there. Those students choose their own path of being morons/ clowns/ failures. Let's face it, the problem lies within your own community and your parenting skills. Why is it that many top scholars from many schools are from average income immigrant families like Vietnamese, Russians, Germans, Chinese, Korean etc.? Could it be that they actually teach their children the right values in life? Nah couldn't be.
Streetcleaner
Ban the gangs? Waist millions of dollars trying to police said ban? Nope there is a far more easier way. Gather the gangs up, send them to a remote island in the Hauraki gulf, arm them with all the latest weapons and let them go for it. End of gangmembers, end of problem
Erich
Well, going by the definition provided by one reader that stated that gangs were associations of criminals, then certainly. While there is a place in society for organizations that love motorcycles, or affiliate based on sports or other shared legal activities, it is obvious that any group that fails to police its own ranks and report all crimes committed by its members to the police should not exist. People joining such a group knowingly for the 'cool' factor are ignorant at best, feeble-minded at worst. If these groups were truly socially responsible, they would remove the known criminals from within their own ranks as soon as proof of criminal activities existed or was known.
Richard Wallace
I believe that gangs need to be banned. They are nothing more than drug dealers, stand over, intimidating people. I left New Zealand because of the problems I was having with them in my business. The finance companies use them to threaten people in exchange for cheap vehicles or a little cash.All gangs need to be removed from New Zealand society as we are to small for this carry on. New Zealand has become a breading ground for professional crime. The death of this child is terrible, but the bottom line is the courts will take into account the man's background and he will only do 10 years. This crime where a child has been shot dead deserves nothing less than the death sentence imposed. There is no excuse for this terrible crime against a child whom has never had a chance in life. The mother needs to be charged also for putting a child into a gang quarters knowing the child may have been in danger, booze, smoking etc also. I left New Zealand 4 years ago and have little intention to return, but I was forced to leave because of the pressure I was under by one of the gangs in West Auckland. i was paying them 10k nzd per month in stand over fees. Note the guy i was paying was a double lifer back out on the street. New Zealand has become a low class place to live like it or not and its sad.
How many good Kiwis are leaving? How many return? The government takes all the scam bags just before election time to get the votes. The government of New Zealand has know interest in looking after its people period, and if they did these problems would not be re occurring all the time.
Greg (Boston USA)
I am a New Zealander who has lived in the USA for the last 10 years. I travel home to New Zealand on a regular basis to visit friends and family. I am always amazed about how we (New Zealanders) seem to turn very simple issues in extraordinary complex problems. As with most things, the answer to the gang issue is very simple. Will banning Gangs increase the quality of life for the majority of society? Yes. The Gang issue is no different that the gun issue. Ban them and we all benefit.
David ( Auckland)
As has already been said, there is no way to define "gang" that would not unexpectedly take in some other group. To define "gang" as those who conduct criminal activity would be folly.The Police, themselves, have recently been dragged through the muck by a minority group, doing things that could be considered "gang" activities. The RSA was also considered to be a "gang" because of the badge identification the members wear so proudly.Just as there are minority groups in the Police force so too are there minority groups in the "gangs". Instead of using terminology to identify a particular unwashed group as a "gang", enforce the gun control laws. Identify and penalise those who sell guns illegally. Eliminate the source and the problem might be resolved.
Predant, New Zealand
This is to Nel, who says he is from India, Mate, I am from India too, and I disagree with your views saying that no one in India claims to be members of gangs, infact New Zealand is a much safer country than India, I dont approve of gang culture anywhere, however I need to point this out clearly, in New Zealand most gangs or fights take place between gangs, and seldom do members of public get involved, they will leave you alone, unless you get involved with them. That is not the case with Indian gangs, they attack the public outright, look at whats happening in Bihar, New Delhi or other huge Indian cities, they got rape and murder almost every 3 hours. compared to that New Zealand is a great country, although, New Zealand needs to be careful of giving too much freedom to gangs and should do something about it, then this country really would be heaven on earth.
Kirstie (Otahuhu)
A innocent child has been killed by a driveby shooting involving gangs. It seems to be common now days, 2 people killed in otahuhu both gang related. Not a day goes past and here in Otahuhu the "blues" and the "reds" causing problems if not in the CBD, it is in the local streets. What do the cops do? Nothing. Why? Because they cant. Iit is about time the government got off their behinds and work with the local police to stop this from happening. Banning patches from the CBD area is a start but the bylaws need to be stuck by and it enforced. Secondly, the police need to work with the local gang members to try to bring some sort of order to this beautiful country we call "New Zealand" where it is safe to walk around with no fear of being singled out. It is time for the people of New Zealand to stand up and voice what we want not what the gangs want. I pray for the day where New Zealand will be one and crime,murders and rape are at its lowest. RIP wee angle, may you find peace.
Kiwi in USA
I am deeply saddened to read that an innocent life is taken by deep rooted hatred through possible so called gang affiliation mentality. My sincere condolences to the whanau concerned and my thoughts and prayers are with their forever gone child and them at this time. I have lived here in the US for the past ten years in the Washington DC area and witnessed one month daily killings of innocent children under the ages of 17 through drive by shootings by local adolescent gangs of both male and females, where supposed strict gun control laws in the area have not prevented illegal firearms turning up into the wrong hands. It seems an American trend that is glorified daily in the media which I feel is partly responsible for the cause to the violence being replicated around the world. Why do people join gangs is the root of the concerns I have. If parents arent able to foster love and mentor good moral standards and beliefs to their children, their children will undoubtedly turn to someone that shows any similar interest in them, and hence the gang affiliations could easily begin. Outlaw it you ask? I thought it was several years ago before I left NZ. Has something changed while I was away? Does civil liberties allow gangs to continue silently spreading violence over each other? If so should not the Justice Minister be looking at ways to prevent this? I think we need to seriously consider the cause of the reasoning for this tragic event before we pass judgment on whether or not it is because the home where the incident occurred may or may not have been rented to possible Black Power gang members.Let the Police do their job before we speculate on that and lets remember a child is dead because of some murderers actions, and no other reason.
Ex NZer thinking twice about coming back
I left NZ to get away from the violence in Auckland Id love to come back as I really miss the wonderful outdoors. However I read the Herald Online every day and am dismayed to see nothing has improved as far as violent crime is concerned. How can a country with only 4 million people have so much violent crime? Gangs are just a part of it. I think its members are full of lower intelligent, weak bully boys that have never grown up. It reminds me of school bully antics. Most people grow out of this but these people are so weak and stupid with their primitive elevated levels of testosterone, They feel they need to belong to a gang to give them some identity. Enough political correctness, time to get rid of these idiots.
Wanganui Citizen
It makes me angry to hear Tariana Turia saying these murderers are not indicative of whanau and are a minor uncontrollable faction. Does she not remember the example set by the occupiers of Moutua Gardens? There were weapons, including guns, used to intimidate. There were the bullying tactics to join the occupiers. There was the deliberate intimidation of shopkeepers and shoppers in the main street. The desecration of public monuments. The thefts from farmers that skyrocketed during that time. Let alone the children who did not go to school for weeks and the death of a child in an area full of extended family. And the list goes on. Is this what she calls setting a good example to younger folk? No wonder some Wanganui folk have armed themselves, as drive by shootings, and intimidation are common in this town and are not being dealt with.It seems that it is up to the individual to protect their family as no one else will get there quick enough. Perhaps the terrible death of an innocent child will not even be enough to get the message through. We live by example.
Concerned from Hamilton
Gangs are for those who have no backbone to stand on there own two feet. Look at this sweet little girl brought up around violence and died by violence. Its all she probably knew. If her mother or father gave a toss about the welfare of their daughter, they would have taken her out of this lifestyle and made damn sure she was well sheltered from this gang fueled atmosphere. This child paid the price for the type of life her parents chose to live. I am definitely angry at those mongrels that pulled the trigger they deserve the most horrible sentence the judicial system can throw at them. So should gangs be outlawed? Yes,I am sick to death with politicians having hui with these "gang" idiots! Lets start having hui with CYFS so they can get there a into g and get these beautiful babies into healthy homes and out of gutter. We have lost one beautiful baby lets not wait for another.
Jackie
Police need their power back. The government needs to give power to the armed forces as well. We also need restrictions on alcohol and drugs tougher penalties. All residents need to vote on this. So we can live safely on our land.
Auckland Mother
Define the word "gang" please. If a group of 4 teenagers decided to form a "gang" to clean up the beach or perform music, should they be outlawed? What if there are 10 people who didn't know each other, communicated through chat rooms under pseudonyms on the internet to deliver and sell drugs - technically they aren't gangs, but this new law wouldn't outlaw them! In the end, a dumb law like that will chew up thousands of dollars of taxpayers' money & time to write it, debate it, defend it and pass it into law. and, then it would be near impossible or very expensive to enforce (imagine hiring new policemen just to enforce this). Colluding together shouldn't be illegal. Committing crimes whether you're acting alone or together with a group of others is a crime. We already have existing laws we can use to charge those who do commit a crime or are accessories to crime. Use those. Please don't spend taxpayer money writing new ones that already do what the old ones do. Thanks.
Philip
It is ridiculous to compare the police with the gangs. Just because there are few black sheep in the police force it does not make them a gang. Also the ethnicity of a criminal should not be the deciding factor. It should be crime and crime alone. This nation is too soft on crime whether organized or not. The only thing to be done is to crush all sorts of criminal activities ruthlessly.
Johnny
How about New Zealand implementing a police Gang Task Force? That Task Force can concentrate on gang activity and mode of operation to free up the regular police force. The Task Force can aid and/or participate in gang stings/raids. The Gang Task Force can also have more professional undercover agents embedded into gangs to identify who they are and how they operate. The Gang Task Force can establish guidelines to aid MPs by gathering accurate information to enact proper legislation against gangs and educate the public. The Gang Task Force can research information from other police forces in the world and, with Interpol, that have their own Gang Task Force (i.e. the United States) to enhance the New Zealand Gang Task Force to "custom make" its Task Force Operations that is compatible to New Zealand. The Gang Operation and Organised Crime in the United States is far more advanced and complicated than here in New Zealand. Therefore, With the knowledge learned from the United States Gang Task Forces, the New Zealand Gang Task Force will be more prepared to deal with the future level of gang operations to come, here in New Zealand.
Rodger
It is clear to me what to do about gangs. Identify by behaviour, prosecute. Cut off normally made assistance. Survellance of trouble areas. Destroy the acceptance of gang culture. Raise acceptance of those who are against dangerous drug manufacture and firearm wielding members. People should be more aware of their rights to peace and enjoyment. I have witnessed the deaths of a lot of good people mainly through suicide and I personally think there is no place in society for things like P, pit bulls, and dangerous gangs or more specifically those who fight, terrorise, push drugs, promote crime and extort.
Albert
Yes, have an anti-gang law, which clearly defines one that involves activities of violence, intimidation, drugs, extortion, etc. Those caught are liable to be jailed under the act for an indefinite period subject to a minimum of 10 years and 12 strokes of cane. There will be strictly no communication other than with members of the immediate family once a month for 15 minutes. This is not perfect, but I think a really good start. Anyone in the govt willing to take on this challenge? How about putting a vote to this route?
WendyG
Do you honestly believe these gang members understand the term 'civil liberties'? What about their neighbours' civil liberties? We all deserve the right to live in peace and not fear that our streets are no-go zones. What about the children? Don't let's bring them up in a world of hate and fear. Ban the gangs - now - before it gets out of control and we end up with martial law!
Sick of it
Yes. gangs need to be dis-armed, dis-credited, and dis-abled. It's all very well when the idiot gang members are killing each other, but when innocent bystanders are caught up in the crossfire, or as in this case, a child, it is not ever acceptable.
Kenny
How can gangs be allowed to run free? Only in NZ! I am shocked. What will it take before Govt do something? How many more babies/children need to die? How many? Should learn from country like Singapore where gangs are eradicated back in the 70's.
Dirk
Banning gangs or not banning gangs is not going to change the ways of these criminals. They are businesses and they will adapt. We need to cut off their major source of revenue by legalising marijuana, controlling it and taxing it, and then using these tax revenues for decent drug education, better health initiatives and improved policing of more serious crime (e.g. the manufacture and distribution of P). Secondly, we need to ensure that there are proper consequences for perpetrators of serious crime - e.g. hard labour with no privileges whatsoever for these criminals until they have been earned. At present, crime pays, prison is professional development and for the next crop of potential gang recruits, crime is a very viable career option.
Kimmo Wiltshire
No. They are just a group of people-an organisation. Outlawing organisations is infringing civil liberties. Gangs commit organised crime which is against the law already.
Anomonous
This is just pathetic, The Mongrel Mob are all that their name say it is, just a pack of mongrels and a bunch of pussys that have to drive by a house shooting! There no men, a real man doesnt need a gun in the first place so it just shows us what a bunch of girls they really are, since when does a man of mana shoot into house and then kill a 2 year old girl. I left NZ because of its rising crime rate, corrupt police and government policies,crappy pay, poor living conditions, I have a 2 year old boy, i feel for the family, NZ is no longer a place to live, NZ has nothing to offer, oh yeah our country is beautiful, no doubt about it, ptty about some of the people that inhabit it! I´d never return to NZ, with a population of 4 million and all the shit i read everyday on the net about NZ. I am ashamed to say I come from there! The government needs to open their eyes, stop talking the talk and start to walk the walk! Rest In Peace little one, you are in a far better place now!!!! kia kaha
Phil Sinclair
I'm sure one of the many racist reactionary governments NZers have elected over the years would have banned gangs if they could have but there is no way that you could define it. They would have to stop any people from meeting in groups of more than 3 like some sort of dictatorship if they did pass that law. Find out why young Maori males get little out of mainstream NZ society and instead of forcing them to join in, change things especially schools. Of course since that is namby-pamby or even worse PC thinking it will never happen, so innocents are going to die in stupidities such as this until we learn that throwing young men in jail makes them worse not better. Not to worry everyone will make a monster out of the perpetrators, the victims and all of their families in their desperation to 'prove' they bear no responsibility for the society we have all created.
Marc
Gangs should definitely be banned. You can't compare them to the police or to any other member of the society. New Zealand's lenient policy towards gangs is a joke. They should be treated as terrorists! How can a gang member possibly not be a criminal?
SB
Legalise/decriminalise all drugs and have them very tightly regulated this would put most of the problem gangs out of business overnight. Other than that, there really is no way to stop groups of people engaging in criminal activity. Perhaps if the major problems that plague our society were fixed up we would see a drop in criminal activity. Please note that tougher sentencing, passing new legislation and building more prisons is not a way of fixing the problems, they "cover" up the symptoms but they really don't work in the long run.
Auckland
I'm not sure if it is legally viable. But it should be possible to prosecute anybody who has knowingly contributed towards a crime. Thereby in the case of the recent child murder it should be possible to prosecute the parent for contributing to the cause by being a patched member. A little harsh! But still one has to ask does accountability only lie with the perpetrator?
JP from Wellington
I think Helen Clark is right on the money when she says that an outright ban on gangs would increase their mana and make them more attractive to young people. The issue is complex and simply banning something won't make it go away.
Which planet?
Turiana Turia has lost the plot. The police have a special "Asian Crime Unit". Can you imagine the screaming if they had a Maori crime unit. Would she care to name an active patched gang member who does not associated with criminals?
Anne (Auckland)
"The police's definition of a gang is: a group of individuals, juvenile and or adult, who associate on a continuous basis, form an allegiance for a common purpose, and are involved in delinquent or criminal activity. This definition is simple and functional. The gang may range from a loose knit group of individuals who hang around together and commit crimes together, to a formal organization with a leader or ruling council, gang colours, gang identifiers, and a gang name." http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4111/nogangs.html
This is a quote from the web. Using this definition, the self-righteous Ms Clark, Mr Laws, etc may see a difference between the 'gangs' and the Police but I don't. How many of the people in a 'gang' have to be criminal before the line is crossed? There are responsible and irresponsible people and behaviour in both groups. I'm sure that Louise Nicholas et al felt considerably worse because their experiences involved Police personnel. I can hear all the arguments now, but what difference is there? The victims are dead or seriously damaged as the result of a lack of humanity/caring and someone's belief in their own right to be judge and jury. Go Tariana!
Ronesh Ram
Gangs will never perish, its primal behaviour. Its best to have a better control of lethal weapons in this country. Limited resources will result in less gang related casualties.
Christer Friberg
Gangs, which consists of criminals and control drug distribution, sale of stolen properties and our prisons must be stopped. At the same time, we must find solution to the reasons why young men and women turn to these. Parents must assume more responsibility for their children and the police force must be reinforced.
Russell
Next Tariana will be telling us that not all politicians are idiots hunting the perfect soundbite.
Gavin
Zero tolerance is what is needed. We do not have to put up with these scum. These scum use intimidation and violence to cause fear amongst the general public.We, the people of New Zealand do not have to live with this type of intimidation and violence. We as the people of New Zealand need to say enough-is-enough.We need to tell this government that we will not put with these scum any longer and that they need to grow a backbone and pass law to outlaw these gangs.
Sanguine Sam
There's no way to define "gang" that won't unexpectedly take in some other group. But there is another way to target the people we want: they are recidivist criminals, extortionists, and people who recruit others. So what we should be doing is reviewing the penalties for repeat violent offenders, extortion, and commissioning others to commit crime.
Linda (Point Chevalier)
Let us appeal to the noble and good in the hearts of Mongrel Mob and Black Power members. Make the awful death of Jhia mean that her name is forever remembered for the reconciliation and peace that followed.
Don't allow the media to whip up a "Gang War". Which will no doubt sell papers but break the hearts of many.
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