Your Views: Earlier thoughts on the gang issue

Here are earlier Your Views on the issue:

Concerned about Gangs
First of all, arm the police. No matter what kind of legislation to control gangs is implemented, how on earth are the police supposed to pose any kind of threat to these people armed with batons or stun guns, when they are up against guns? They'll be shot long before they get in range to use their baton. And if a gang-member is shot in a confrontation with armed police? Live by the sword, die by the sword. The gangs are able to live outside society because they are swimming in drug money. Something must be done to control the P epidemic that is filling their pockets. They certainly couldn't afford to buy guns if they had to live off the dole.

Chieftain
Surely the "last" thing New Zealand needs is more laws on the Statute Books. "Banning" gangs will only drive them further underground and would be about as effective as "banning" assault weapons has been. Being a member of a "gang" should not, in itself, be illegal -- that would be "guilt by association" and a breach of Human Rights. However, what some gangs are doing is already highly illegal, more than adequately covered by existing law. Only one additional law need be passed, and that one should resemble the Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organization laws of the US, otherwise known as RICO. A new enforcement agency, separate from the Police and modeled something like the FBI or New Scotland Yard, needs to be established to focus on enforcing that single RICO law. Concurrent sentencing must also stop, as must compulsory parole, for RICO crimes. To prevent the Gangs taking over and recruiting from prisons, incarceration for breaching RICO should not happen within the general prison population but rather in a purpose-built facility, perhaps on an island.

Em
Hmm, how does one ban a gang/group? What constitutes a gang? Its all very well to sing 'yes!' in a chorus, but how does that work, logistically? Do we ban the obvious? Or do we get to label a few other things as well, religious groups whose rules and agenda don't agree with mainstream New Zealanders?, Dog clubs? Exclusive Bretheren? The business roundtable? All are considered 'groups' of some kind. Dismantling the framework and alternative rulebooks perhaps, what about tougher sentencing in general?

Nick
Of course gangs should be outlawed in this country. The trouble is this government does not have the balls to bring in such a law for fear of backlash from the idiot do- gooders of this country. I say outlaw all gangs and leave it to the lawmakers to decide how it should be done. Just do it. Sad about the child's death but I have no problem whatsoever if gangs choose to kill each other, but not the innocent public!

Optimus
It's a start.

Anne
Unfortunately "outlawing" gangs is unrealistic. What isn't, is empowering the justice system and ensuring that system does the right thing by society. No more "soft touch" sentencing or jail treatment. Use the prisons we have in this country to cage those who would disobey the law so violently. Put the lesser (fraud, white/blue collar) "criminals" out on extended community service instead of housing them at the taxpayers' expense, leaving the newly freed up beds for those who actually deserve them.

Michael
Every year the same question comes up, and as always people talk and as always do nothing and wait for it to go away .If the police can do nothing then it is up to the people to make a real stand, remember that the people outnumber the gangs by 100 plus to one. They can totally destroy this cancer that just gets bigger every year, I cannot see 2000 people all appearing in the Law Courts all at the same time, and who would condemn them for taking the law into their own hands when the Government has time and time again said much and done nothing.

Chris Green
I fail to see why we cannot get gangs under control. We have armed police units. The gang members have put themselves outside the norms of society. Let society use the armed police to permanently remove the gang members from society. A simple short piece of legislation saying that gang members will be shot and killed on sight would do the trick. Human rights do not come into the issue.

John
Terrified city braces for gang revenge!! This has to be the most sensational headline of the millennium. I came to work this morning the usual way, as did my workmates. None of us even mentioned the gangs and certainly no-one is "terrified". This is pathetic journalism!! As for the gangs and any other association that breaks the law they should be banned. This has got nothing to do with the rights of groups to form whatever association they like. Those oddballs who are suggesting Rotary (or similar) would have to be banned as well must have just arrived from another planet. I have never heard of Rotary (or similar) conduct drive-by shootings or deal in drugs. As usual, one or two nutters have missed the plot. As far as the idiot who suggested that if marijuana was made legal this would all go away! Have he/she not heard of 'P'? Gangs don't deal in marijuana to the degree they do with 'P' nowadays.

PCb
Just so long as no one in the current government (our their green allies) writes the legislation - then we would find any group from families upwards would be illegal . . .

Gremlin (Wanganui)
It would be nice if the papers wouldnt make such a song and dance about this. Its bad enough that this little girl has lost her life, without the papers making it sound like our town is turning into a war zone. Why not leave it all alone and let this poor family get on with there grieving.

Angry (Wanganui)
I believe that we need to do something about gangs. However I do not believe that ridding them of their patches,regalia etc is going to do anything, how do we identify who they are? If we rid them of these patches no one will feel safe to walk the streets, take their children to the park, walk their dog, in fear of being shot, raped, burgled etc.

John Robb
I find the Your Views from "Expatriate" astounding. I read the Sydney Morning Herald online on a daily basis and the killings, rapes, beatings (drug-related, gangs, racist and domestic) and horrendous driving offences in Australia are epidemic; NZ is a peaceful paradise by comparison.

Hello
Why are they gang treated as terrorist entities? They fit the criteria. All the law has to do is name them, ie. Mongel Mob, Black Power, etc and make it an offense to be associated with such groups in just the same way there is a list of terrorist organisiations such as Al Quaeda, Hamas etc that are also illegal to belong to. The government will continue to make excuses and the atrocities will continue to happen.

Kenny
Reap what you sow! Another horrible case. Teenager arrested after cop hit in face with bottle. The poor policeman needed 21 stitches. Our law enforcer do not have to face this kind of hazard. We need to tighten up our laws & policies!

Nathan
Gang members? Shoot them on sight.

Barry D
What else to government and local councils need? There has been a death of an innocent 2 year old girl, for what being born into the wrong family! I think these so called gangsters need to grow up and see that their actions are not only harming them but all the people that they are around. Gangs bring no good to any community all they bring is a lifestyle of drugs, violence and crime. What more will it take!

Jane
'Helen Clark questioned today whether an outright ban on gangs would be effective'. This is in the NZ herald today and yet where was this same question in the smacking bill? I think the violence in this country is at a crazy level and we must do all we can to curb it before it escalates further.

Colin
Put them all in the army. Train them up and send them to the real warfields where the real killings are. Show them what fighting and death is really like. They should grow up and stop playing the silly childhood war games (yes, they use real weapons now - but it's still the childish war and intimidation game they play) - grow up and stop relying on the 'gang packs of your colour' protecting you...

Steve Blackwell
An absolute tragedy that will end the same way as the murders of the Kahui twins as the Police pussy foot around Iwi and Maori protocol.

Tim (Wellington)
We seem to be ignoring an elephant in the room. Prohibition. Alcohol prohibition was a failure. Prohibition in the USA during 1920s funded the rise of immensely powerful 'gangs' - the mafia. Alcohol prohibition did not stop the sale of alcohol, it just handed over the supply of alcohol, and thus immense profits, to gangs. Unfortunately we seem unable to learn from our mistakes, and once again prohibition is funneling money into gangs. If we truly want to demolish the power of gangs in New Zealand we must address the policy failure that has allowed them to become so powerful - marijuana prohibition. Do we want the billion dollar marijuana industry controlled by gangs or the government? The same type of tragic events that have occurred presently during marijuana prohibition occurred during alcohol prohibition, yet we still struggle to make the connection between the two. If we want to prevent tragic events like this happening again we must tackle the gang issue head on, by cutting off their source of immense wealth.

Stubbs (Auckland)
Where does sense of decency kick and stupidity go out.? Of course gangs should be outlawed and it takes the death of an innocent baby as to why.The govt and officials have allowed gangs like this to fester our society for too long.What a sad senseless waste of life. The parents to this child is just as much to blame as the cowards who did this..for raising their child in such an environment. Had they not have been gang members. theirr house would not have been targeted. Therefore this child would be still alive. What a high price to pay.

Auckland
Its a simple answer. We cant! First gangs are banned. Then Religion is deemed as evil. So that I banned. Then work unions are "a bane on society" so they too are banned. What gives you the right to decide whether or not gangs are evil? Andi if gangs are evil, and should be banned, where do we stop and how do we draw the line.? If you ban Gangs and only gangs then you are discriminating against those who are in gangs! And then we can no longer call our selves a nation for all.

Doug Rich
Why do you say "Terrified city braces for gang revenge"? We're not terrified at all, they re going to attack and kill each other, not the public, so good riddance to them. They would certainly be revelling in all the publicity you are giving them. After all they are losers just craving attention.

Georgina (Palmerston North)
So parents can't smack their children as a way of discipline.. but leave it to the gangs to go around and shoot them. Come onpPoliticians grow some balls & send these idiots to Iraq then we will see who the boys are from the men!! Instead of trying to find a way to criminalise parents, do something about these idiots who are becoming a cancer in society.

Disgusted (Taupo)
Gangs should be outlawed and disbanded. The death of Jhia was gutless and ruthless such a loved and happy little girl has been killed over colours . There is so much anger and hurt,one has to wonder what Jhias death will bring out. Hopefully the gangs will realise that innocent lives dont need to be lost and the patches will disappear, or the opposite may happen and revenge will be sought if this is the case Wanganui will not be a happy place to live and no doubt the anger will go country wide which will be disastrous I hope the police can keep on top of all this

Shell (Auckland)
Police should have the power to outlaw all these gangs - this and many other situations highlights the importance of stopping this type of behaviour - all gang patches etc should be banned!

Dill
Increase the punishment and throw all the gangsters to jail. If there is not enough prison rooms, outsource the prisons to cheaper places like China, I am sure they' ll be looked after carefully.

Tim (Wellington)
New Zealand is definitely too soft on criminals and gangs. We should not tolerate this pathetic and childish behaviour in grown adults. Admittedly, many of these people have the intelligence and reasoning of children, which I guess, is not their fault. But locking up gang members for long periods will not solve the problem completely. Gang members generally come from criminal families, where dishonesty, selfishness, violence and anti-social behavior are taught at an early age. Some how we need to target these families and pull them up out of the mire. They need to know that there is more to life than alcohol, drugs and crime. Communities need to target at risk families, and engage youngsters in healthy interests and activities from an early age. In the meantime, lock up the present generation for as long as possible.

Emma
This is short and simply. It's the violence that needs to stop. Bring back some serious penalties for these actions.

Kevin (Brisbane)
One of the main reason I moved to Australia in 1996 was because of the gangs and the Maori problem in Wanganui gardens. Many other Kiwis are here for the same reason.The Maori's over here are fantastic and they say they moved for the same reason, Plus to keep their children out of the "Gang culture".The police are too scared and totally gutless when it involves gangs.

Janice Richards
I can't believe this could happen in NZ. Though i live in australia,as a kiwi it makes me sad to hear our country is becoming like the "Bronx" in America.All Kiwis should take a hard stand on gangs and save this beautiful country,before it turns into another America. Enough is enough.

Pete (Japan)
Secure them all in ?, I don't know, bush!?. Give them any weapons they want & let 'em go for it !

Angrymob
Its sad, sad but theres nothing being done. you know the only solution is to go in there and bust them up, anyone wearing a patch, arrest them and put them in prison. Anyone who wears one goes to jail. so... the entire gang population is in jail, there they can destroy each other and no one will shed a tear

Daniel
I strongly disagree with making gangs illegal. What will follow next will be the systematic removal the peoples rights to join groups of like minded individuals organized religion? Freemasonry ? Pigeon clubs?. The violence in Wanganui is a shame, What i believe the problem is the way our children are being raised it is the fault of the parents that their children go out and into these situations.

Over it (Whanganui)
I don't know the solution to a problem that has plagued our societies through generations now. What I do know is that I'm sick and tired of these people who think they sit outside society. If they want to live like dogs, rape pillage plunder and have hissy fits about the other gangs choice of colour arrangement or floral arrangements or whatever, then lets put them all on an island together where they don't bother any of us sane people. Better yet, lets put money into space exploration so we can send them into outer space with each other and see how they like that! Reality is though, they're here. We need to deal with them realistically. Is legislation going to do much? I don't think so. What good is law to non-law abiding citizens??? Anyone else got the answer?

Nancy (Whanganui)
A society where gangs flourish does not appear over night. As communities and as people we must all take responsibility for what happens around us, within our Whanau, Schools and Communities.
Banning gangs is the ambulance at the end of the Cliff. What are our communities going to do about how are children are falling through the gaps and resorting to finding mates in like situations(Gangs). The signs are there and we know it, it just takes guts to do something about it.

Pippi (Parkvale)
Absolutely ban them. If people need a place to 'belong' there are loads of positive, worthwhile clubs they can join. This isn't rocket science. This is the only way to clean up the growing 'pustule' in society!

Bub
For years these gangs have terrorized innocent civilians. Doesn't the government realise that they are the downfall of New Zealand? Who wants to visit our beautiful country with those thugs hanging out at every corner? They have contributed nothing to society and they breed violence. Its sad how their children suffer for their pathetic mindless actions. What is the purpose of the Mongrel mob and Black Power mob anyway?? If you look at their history, what positive things have they done for the country? Nothing..because thats what they are worth! Get rid of them!!

Expatriate
Outlawing gangs is long overdue. My husband's company relocated us to Australia for a three year work contract. That was 17 years ago. Why are we still here? Because the thought of having to live in fear just isn't appealing. Violence - and the threat of violence - permeates NZ's streets. Hate and anger and rage is rampant. The government has always been afraid to address the gang issues. And until it does -my husband and I are two people who won't be returning in a hurry.

Philip
Too many bleeding hearts in our government today, too many politics involved before any action is taken. Most NZers would never admit it, but NZ is a soft touch. The gangs/criminal organizations have take advantage of this and thrived. They are able to wear their patches proudly in the street and openly disregard the law. Why has NZ let this happen? Overhaul the justice system to hand out tougher sentences. Police should continually harass gang members who publicly wear their patches. It seems to me that the police are too afraid to tackle the gang problems head on. Media is giving gangs way too much support (ie. TV3's recent story about a meeting held by opposing gang members to stop the violence for the future of their children: what a load of crock! It's time to do something before it's really too late. Why should society live in fear of gangs, it should be the other way around.

JH
It's all very well to say 'ban the gangs' but think about it - that will just encourage them! The type of people gangs attract will be even more eager to join if the very act of doing so is illegal. There are surely enough laws in place to stop this kind of behaviour already, the problem is the lack of police and funding to enforce them.

Al
I am just wondering what the attraction is to becoming involved in gangs, or why anyone would want to have gangsters ( or unruly thugs) as companions. Are they paid more than working class people? Perhaps its the tax breaks they get? Or just the free drugs and parties? I bet a lot of these deadbeats come from the same families and the parents are well looked after with the proceeds of drugs and robberies.

John
On the subject of gangs there will be much debate, blustering, accusations and name calling from MP's from all parties even from those who did nothing when they were last in power, however this time since there has been an especially tragic death perhaps they will actually do something. Yeah Right. Just a comment on your emotive by-line, I doubt that the majority of people in Wanganui are "terrified". Apprehensive, nervous perhaps, maybe even concerned, but terrified? Oh please.

ChrisB(Tauranga)
A lot of comments typed up in the heat of the moment I think. I am not sure either way, because first of all any legislation would have to define what is a gang? I feel that the legislation would be unworkable. Having said that, I definitely think that we need to be tougher on gang related crime and especially juvenile delinquency. But, this is just a case of the logical effects of a morally relativistic and liberal society which says there is no such thing as evil - in itself another victory for evil.

Gold Coast
The notion of legislating against gangs is complex. There have been attempts in other jurisdictions to do likewise and all have stalled at the very definition of "gangs" .The question of legislating against acts of violence, and other criminal activity however is less problematic given the very tenets of law aim to protect. Law and order are the domain of the police and the courts and should be strengthened to ensure people who act outside of the law are made accountable. Outlaw gangs simply have no place and no right to intimidate and act unlawfully, illustrated so painfully in Wanganui with the loss of an innocent child. My suggestion to the New Zealand government is to inject significant resources into policing and the parallel establishment of a national Outlaw Gang Taskforce which has an expressed intent on "breaking" the criminal culture of gangs. This strategy has the potential to provide medium/long term solutions in that it removes from outlaw gangs the very element their code relies upon - crime. It is equally important to demonstrate a new Police visibility in all communities to ensure community confidence is returned.

Velo
Doesn't really matter whether most law-abiding New Zealanders (or even any law-abiding gang members) want something done about gangs. It's pretty much impossible to get any sort of justice done here these days - child abuse is through the roof, police officers walk from rape charges, teenagers are mown down on streets and toddlers killed in their beds...nothing is done, because the lovely people in Wellington (white middle class chatterers) are too afraid to take a strong stance in case it is perceived as a breach of civil liberties. The whole thing stinks - for such a small country, we really should be able to take a hold of things like this. Why the hell can't we?

Le Fox
Gangs have been around for many years, & it has been well established, that they are not boy scout groups. All political parties should stop pretending these people are harmless misunderstood individuals, see them for who they really are, & allow the Police the money & resources to clamp down, bring charges, remove assetts, gaol offenders & contain the media from sensationalising the gangs & from bringing the Police into dispute.In these cases, allow the Police the ability to do their job without prejudice.

Susan Perry
Of course they should be outlawed. Armed police and military should be brought in to control them and not blamed if a criminal is shot while ignoring police or the law. I love New Zealand but I live in Melbourne Gang problems and general lawlessness are only 2 of many reasons we left the country we love and were born and brought up in, in order to give our children a better future. It saddens me that the future in NZ looks so grim but outlawing these gangs is one small step to begin the process of sorting things out. NZ is a country that has so much potential ... but it seems to go nowhere. Why?

James Ellis
This situation in Wanganui and the one in Christchurch highlights the extremely serious social ills in this country. As migrants, my family and I moved here because NZ is the most beautiful country on the planet. We also felt that it was a progressive and safe society where an up front and brave approach would be taken to its problems. In almost two years of living here we have found that people are generally friendly and that our quality of life has been fantastic. However, we are increasingly finding that situations such as these in Wanganui and Christchurch involving drink/drug related violence are getting more frequent and intense. As a reasonably liberal minded individual, it goes against my natural inclinations, but surely the time for a zero tolerance approach to gangs, drink/drug related violence, dangerous drivers etc etc is well and truly here. It scares the heck out of me to think that this is what my adorable 2 year old daughter could be growing up into. So much so, that while it really does pain me to say this, we are seriously looking at moving across the ditch. This is a wonderful country with so much to be proud of, but action needs to be taken now.

Mary
The government should create a special national anti-gang police force with special powers to use in apprehending gang members. We should also confiscate all proceeds of crime, if it can be reasonably shown that those proceeds do come from crime, even if no conviction in court is secured.

NT (Wellington)
It's a complex issue, but there's one thing the media could do to help in a small way, and that's desist from giving these idiots the very publicity they crave by publishing big photos of them, often making defiant gestures. The same also applies to general criminals, especially juvenile murderers etc, who are known to feel they are some kind of hero when given big pictorial publicity in the media. It's not just the newspapers - TV is even worse. Any criminal idiot who wants to get his picture on TV only has to give the fingers outside a courthouse and it'll be on that night's TV1 news (the "public service" broadcaster).

Becky (Whangarei)
Gangs should not be allowed full stop. Gang members believe they are there to support each other, to 'stand up' for each other when they are done wrong. They believe they are your family. So what? What about your parents & friends who actually care if you die? If there were no gangs, then youth of today would learn to turn to their parents, counsellors or friends –not get involved with guns. They wouldn't learn stealthy ways to steal, where to get the next supply of drugs. I know that it's not always possible to sort it out over a cup of tea, but getting revenge & killing is never the answer to any problem. Ever. How selfish can you be to put yourself into a situation where you yourself may be killed? Think how that affects your children, parents, brothers & sisters. There is only one word for anyone that gets themselves involved gangs. Selfish.

Simon
When civil liberties breech public safety in such blatant aggression as manifested by NZ gang culture, clearly it should be outlawed. I can't see anyone shedding a tear if more of these goons were locked up.

Pablo
Gangs should not be banned per se, as any legislation would no doubt include groups of people who aren't partaking in illegal activities. Instead perhaps the specific gangs should be classified as criminal organisations, and any members automatically subject to arrest, and any assets subject to seizure.

Murray
We do not need yet another enquiry. Any sane person knows that these gangs are nothing but criminal low-lifes who have no respect for others. They know that even if they are arrested, by the time they get to trial they have ample time to organise their assets and then live a comfortable life in prison where they are untouchable due to our laws which give them more comforts and rights, than our average law abiding citizens. Outlaw them, give the police the manpower and weaponry to deal with them quickly, freeze their assets on arrest. Make an assembly of more than five together wearing patches illegal, and make imprisonment be imprisonment. Get Sue Bradford to draft a bill protecting the vast majority of innocent law abiding citizens from the violence of these mongrels

Amy, Auckland
I believe that gangs should be outlawed, what good do they do for our society? They cause hurt, havoc, sell poison on the streets, and take from those that work hard for a living. Get rid of them!

Kenny
Sorry to say this but all this killing and gang problems occurs in NZ cos your policies and laws are too lenient.

John Phayer
Stop pussy footing around, round the lot up and shoot the bastards! Why hold an entire city to ransom just for a few low lifes?

Tony
We have been down this road countless times in the past. It's true we do have short memories .How many Harvey Davidson motorbikes owned by gangs crash-going the wrong way-not stopping at traffic lights-dangerously ridden causing injury and damage? These gangs do follow the rules when it suits them and off course self-preservation. What's in for me me me? This shows that they will follow the rules when it's of interest to them. The carrot and stick will always works-literally. End of pointless discussions. Will the authority enforce the rule of law-one law for everyone. That's the question?

Derek Leach
Gangs are like snakes, if you cut off the head the body will die. I'd like to suggest that more resources (police, armed forces and other government agencies like the SIS, IRD and WINZ) are focused on identifying and dismantling the leadership and management structures of the long-established major gangs.

Sue
Why should gangsters and criminals have civil rights when they continually infringe upon the rights of others? We are far too soft on gangs - probably because it is mainly a Maori problem. If gangs start facing off to each other in the streets they should be slung into jail - with no TV, under floor heating or anything else. What other country in the world makes sure criminals are kept in comfort while children freeze in schools with inadequate heating? Why doesn't Sue Bradford get on to that for an issue?

Karaitiana Wilson
Yes, they should be outlawed. And when are the rights of the victims of these groups taken into account? Is gang behaviour (rapes/ beatings/ murder/ burglary/ etc) considerate of others' civil liberties?

Matt (Netherlands)
I worry whether it would be counter-productive, if gangs were outlawed, and patches couldn't be worn, the police wouldn't be able to easily tell who was affiliated with whom. A new law isn't going to make these people just disappear. However, I'm sure the majority of New Zealand public are totally fed up with the wake of misery and intimidation that these "losers" force upon our society. I think more resources should be put into policing gangs, they should be under constant police pressure. I would also like to see some effort in changing the New Zealand "staunch culture". I think it's rather pathetic for a grown man to be behaving like some "hard man", and even more pathetic when young kiwis believe this type of behaviour is to be admired and looked up to.

S Olsen
Outlaw the gangs, full stop. Where are our rights when they intimidate our homes? They have been allowed to establish themselves in every city in this country for far too long. No negotiation should be entered into with these mongels - just get rid of them!

Martin Smith
Stuff Civil Liberties - Gangs do not give a toss for anyone else's liberty to live a law-abiding life. These are terrorists on NZ soil. Gang life must be publicly ridiculed and then every piece of available law, used to make their lives a misery.

Annette
Why are these adults ,parents and grandparents, involved in the mindless pathetic behaviours that lead to infants being shot in their slumber? What is going wrong in their heads? It is always the little children who pay the price. Whether it be from neglect and deprivation or mindless violence that leads to permanent injury or death. The nation has lost faith in the police taking any action to protect and aid the vulnerable; but family members especially grandparents who don't give a damn are beyond comprehension. String them all up.

Brad (Auckland)
Get rid of the gangs. I hate the way they have terrorized and gang up on NZ'rs. Its about time we got rid of all gangs. They are a breeding stock for crime and family abuse. All these gangs are a front for criminal activity, so why should they be allowed to operate? They sell drugs to our kids, they bash up and hurt and rape innocent civilians. These gangs are NZ's bad side and they all need to be disbanded and arrested and taken off our streets yesterday.

Philip
This nation is too soft on crime. This nation has a wrong notion on civil liberties. Are there civil liberties only for criminals and not for ordinary people on the streets? These gangs should be wiped off from the face of earth.

Sarah
I'm racking my brains for any form of positive, legal sociological or economical benefit brought to the community by gangs (positive and legal being the operative words), and