KEY POINTS:
Here is an earlier selection of Your Views. Some comments have been edited for legal reasons.
Ian
Why do people say there should be no retrial? The privy council has quashed the verdict because there was new evidence, not because the convicted man was not guilty. That has yet to be determined.
Not innocent
Posters in this section are misinformed in some cases. He is not, not guilty nor innocent, rather the PC ordered a re-trial, subject to the Crown proceeding with it or not as they decide. So technically he is remanded in custody until such time as the matter is brought to trial or otherwise resolved.
Amanda (Auckland)
I have always believed that David was innocent and I hope that he gets the compensation he so rightly deserves.
Nita
We have spent enough taxpayers money on this trial. Free him and give Mr. Karam a (gold)medal!
Manda (Auckland)
Considering our policemen have turned out to be convicted rapists, it will be completely unjust if David Bain was given a re-trial, he is innocent & it is more than obvious that the police botched that case.
Cindy (Dunedin)
The majority of the comments here I find just incredible. Scott Watson? Tamahere? Lundy...? Clearly in the minds of many Kiwis a conviction for murder means you simply cannot be guilty. Give me a break. I agree that the police work in this case was very poor. That makes me angry because it has been the main contributing factor for this circus. But do not confuse shoddy police work with innocence. If you look at the evidence, regardless of the areas of police incompetence, then it tells a very different story. On balance any intelligent person who actually examines the evidence of this case would have to convict David Bain of murder. Let us have a retrial by all means and if there is any new compelling evidence to support his innocence then let it be presented for us all to see. But as it stands, David Bain is guilty. Without a doubt.
Blair
I have been interested in this case for many years. I can well remember the initial reports of the crime, I have read two of Karam's books and I have never been convinced of David's innocence. I remember thinking David was not all he seemed in the days immediately after the crime before he was even mentioned as a suspect. As soon as I heard about the 'suicide' note on the computer I felt it was most likely David did it and nothing I have read or heard since changes my mind.
If Robin was the killer what had Arawa and Stephen Bain done that they did not 'deserve to stay'. Why only David? If Robin had tried to set up David then changed his mind (as suggested by Karam in David and Goliath) why did he still shoot himself in such a way that suicide appeared less likely i.e. entry in the rear hemisphere of the skull, using the magazine to pull the trigger.And remember - neither the law lords nor a jury can ever say David is innocent. Being found not guilty does not prove innocence any more than being found guilty proves guilt.
John, Auckland
I never believed Bain to be guilty - he should be freed immediately and compensated. This whole mess reflects badly on our new Supreme Court's ability to operate at arm's length from the rest of the police/judicial system. We need the impartiality of the Privy Council as a Court of last resort. Le Fox - get your facts straight! The Privy Council is not comprised of only British judges - talented Commonwealth individuals sit aswell - well-respected New Zealanders have been lauded for their expertise on the Privy Council. See http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/honours/overview/honourable_privycouncil.html (last paragraph).
Roy
For Mike of Dunedin, if you think it was David, then what's the motive ? How can you kill all your family without any good reason?
Jamie
I can't believe this he did it no doubt. Astonishing that after this long and so many failed attempts to overturn his conviction, why now? Why was he the only one to survive? Cos he did it. Once again justice system fails.
Dean
What a terrible police force and justice system we have. It seems we work in a way that if its most likely you did then lock em up. People should be accountable for this. Some of them must have known he wasnt guilty. Beyond all reasonable does not apply in this country as we have seen in other cases it seems more important to get someone – anyone.
David Hanger
No, I don't have faith in the justice system.
J Harper
Enough is enough. Let him go.
Emerald Eyes (Auckland)
I hope that he is set free, even if he did do it 12 years is long enough. I totally think it was the father that did this and I have no idea how David is going to join us back into society. I fear for him as he may not be able to cope with the changes. Good luck to him..
Dan
Joe Karam has been inspiring. David Bain was never guilty. The logic of the police case was very similar to the Arthur Thomas case: stitch up a suitable fall guy. The motivation to protect Robin Bain is what fascinates me.
Jeremy (Waikato)
To David Bain, I can only say how sorry I am to you for the loss of your family. I am just as sorry for your freedom being taken away from you by the NZ/Dunedin Police and the prosecution team in a biased campaign waged by them against you! NZ can never make it up to you David but we can begin to try.. Special thanks from me to Joe Karam and David's legal team. Thank goodness he at least had them! A full pardon for David Bain, public apology and complete compensation. Then disciplinary action/criminal charges against members of the NZ/Dunedin Police and prosecution team for withholding/misleading evidence and a public humiliation of Mr Goff for not reviewing the case properly!
I have read the 1997 James McNeish book and Joe Karam's book plus alot of other information. Although I can not know for absolute certainty who killed the Bain family members, I do believe that if I had been on a jury and heard all the evidence, including the evidence the NZ/Dunedin Police withheld/misled etc, there is no way I could have convicted him. I am full of doubt and it certainly was not reasonable doubt to have him convicted. I personally believe he is innocent!
Harold
If you stop and think about our judicial system and Bain's appeal proceedings, it is hard to imagine that the same result would have been reached had the case been considered under NZ's Supreme Court.I do admire the attempt to establish judicial and legal independence from the UK and the Privy Council but I can't think of any practical reasons for the change. I assume accessibility and efficiency were considerations, however since its inception we have only heard of persistent delays... and flaccid excuses. NZ needs to swallow its pride and realise that our legal system is founded on the principles enunciated in the UK legal system. The Privy Council has an implicit political independence that I doubt our Supreme Court can boast. Bain is extremely fortunate to have had his case considered by the, now alienated, Privy Council. I say fortunate because it is going to be the last case the Privy Council hears from our fair shores but mainly because he has had the privilege of having his case considered and evaluated by some of the, if not the, most professional and developed legal minds in the world who have fortunately shed light on the failings of our police, judiciary and government.
Paul
This is part of legal process so fine. However, releasing David without a retrail needs to be carefully considered. There are still significant questions surrounding this case (fingerprints, timing etc) that still need to be 'proven' hence a retrial is needed. It is too easy to point the finger at Robin - just too easy. One thing that this appeal has proven is that you can create doubt simply by amassing quantity of information, rather than quality. That is dangerous as all you need to base a defence on is confusion rather than 'reasonable doubt'. This has now created a big problem as so many people now think he may be innocent (due to confusion) that it is unlikley a retrial will get a conviction. So I expect that the Crown will take the easy option and just release him. But then, they 'admit' Robin done it - which is not justice.Finally well done Joe on your persistence - your actions are noble. However, as for compensation, sorry Joe - your involvement is your call so you have to accept the costs of that yourself. Sometimes being a person with a cause has its costs. As for David, compensation should only be given if he is found innocent following a retrial.
Anna
Read the decision, the whole decision, and tell me if you think David 'clearly' did not commit the crime? The justice system may be flawed, but look past the soundbites and consider that David may well still be very very guilty, and the errors of the police and the Court don't change that. The Privy Council has emphasised that while some questions should have indeed been asked, it does not necessarily mean the answer would have been any different.
J.S.Ruawai (Hamilton)
David Bain should never have been charged. He should be released immediately. The justice system is not being used properly.
Mike Williams
I am delighted that Bain now has a fair opportunity to have his case heard in its entirety - it should never had got to this point. It is unsettling that due to the blinkered approach to this case by some police officers, a man who is (in my view) most likely innocent has had such a big chunk of his life taken from him and that it is only due to the unstinting efforts (in the face of threats and ridicule) by Karam that fairness has prevailed. The unavailability from now on of the Privy Council as a means of truly impartial consideration must be a point of great concern to others who are in substantially similar circumstances.
Gerard (Christchurch)
This is a fantastic outcome for David and the country. The Privy council pulls no punches and highlights the arrogance of the judges in this country (David's is not the only appeal that has been turned down because the judges didn't think the new evidence would change a jury's mind - that is not something they are at liberty to determine). It was a mistake for the Government to extinguish our right of appeal to this competent forum. Why should we believe our supreme court will be any better than our appellate courts given that's where the manpower comes from? The Government should release David and compensate him (regardless of their law to restrict compensation).
Anne Rimmer
David Bain: Let him out immediately. No retrial.
Alistair, Wellington
We must have a new trial! The Privy Council has not found him innocent and he must stay in jail. There is far too much good evidence saying Bain is guilty for him to be walking the streets. Remember the victims: five people who can't speak for themselves have been systematically villified by Joe Karam.
Robynne (Dunedin)
Thank you for asking for opinions on the justice system. I believe that too many cases are heard by the judges of New-Zealand trying to discredit a person without a hearing and also adding evidence that is not proved or substantiated eg hearsay is not evidence. We have too many people in our prisons with police using coercion on young people to say what they want them to say without a lawyer or parent being present even under the age of 18 years old. I believe justice is proof not hearsay The New-Zealand Justice and Police department need a good clean up.
Mary
David Bain should walk free now. A retrial shouldn't even be considered, because apart from evidence being destroyed or contaminated over a very long period of time, too many years have gone by since this tragic event, so new witness statements would be unreliable. Also with all the media coverage over the years, a fair trial would be impossible. Joe Karam, you are a champion!
Cath
For 13 years, this young man has had to endure totally unjustified persecution from the legal system, New Zealand society and more importantly the inmates that he has been incarcerated with.
May his future be brighter than he could ever imagine and the conscience of the legal system haunt them forever. it is a shame that the privy council is no longer available to those inmates that really need their help. For the system that is to replace it is here in New Zealand, and if the high court is anything to go by they will never get a fair hearing. Congratulations to all who believed in David and went to battle for him. May all the blessings you deserve be with you.
The Third Person
Fantastic news he shouted from the rooftops. Congratulations and Best Wishes David Bain. Thank you Jo Karam for your faith and guts!
C Taylor
In this case it is apparent that the Police built the case around the suspect that they wanted to convict, rather letting, common sense and evidence lead them to any conclusions. The police did not follow best practice by any means. The Police clearly bungled this one. David's plight reminds me of the story of Ron Williamson in the John Grisham book (non-fiction), 'The Innocent Man'. David should not be subjected to a retrial and deserves a very big payout. To Joe Karam and his team - you have done David a huge service and have shown endless determination and qualities of humanity that can only be admired.
Indonesia
Joe, I am sure you are very excited right now, I hope you get what you deserve, It's people like you that make me proud to be a Kiwi, well done.
Greta (Waiuku)
I feel very deeply for David Bain, whose young adult years have been spent wrongfully imprisoned. He should be released as soon as possible so that he can start working towards the future.I wish all the very best for him and his future.
Gary Watson
The David Bain case demonstrates again the incompetence, potential for corruption and cover-ups in our system. We are seeing people whom the community looks up to committing and being accused of very serious crimes. Not only are these crimes being committed but the authorities are covering them up and even trying to intimidate those honest people who investigate and expose these horrific acts. The Police, Politicians and even Church Ministers are committing these crimes. The question is who can we trust these days? How many other people are in jail that should not be and how many people in society should be in jail? Most of us are not so gullible to believe every thing we see or hear but my concern is, what is going on behind closed doors.Often the outcomes of these closed door meetings show we were quite right to be suspicious.
Raewyn
Set him free.
Nobilangelo Ceramalus
The contrast between the Privy Council's careful ruling and those of three Courts of Appeal underlines the fact that our system involves a very small group of judges, so they will, understandably, tend to concur, and thus may err, even repeatedly. And when a police force of dubious morality is obsessed with 'getting a result', instead of justice, and is regarded too sympathetically by judges who think an officer's word is worth more than any other citizen's, 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' is far less likely to lead to right being done. Having an external court of final appeal far removed from New Zealand's insularity, removes all such bias. Please, Helen, restore the Privy Council. Or are you afraid of the searchlight of truth? Ditto the police.
Ivan Robins
I am very concerned that Helen Clark's government decided that we no longer need the Privy Council. Clearly we most definitely do.
Sceptic (Tauranga)
As an ordinary citizen I rejoice in the recent decision to quash David's conviction. I am so relieved. Without the police and legal 'trees' ordinary people can see the 'woods',and I always doubted David's guilt,and could find no motive for his actions. Robin Bain's motives were so clear. Professionals in such cases tend to view things through their role, without seeming to allow for extraordinary circumstances, and the speculation of bullet trajectories etc. Ordinary people know that strange occurrences are real. Over past years I admired Joe Karam's resolve and persistence of seeking justice in this case, and always thought how terrible it would be for any young person lose their family, and then be blamed for it, if they were in fact innocent! It would have taken an excellent actor to react as David did when finding all his family shot dead, early in the morning, if he indeed had been guilty. Are we in New Zealand really wise to abandon this British avenue of Judicial Appeal?
Suzanne Hendry
I have always believed that he was innocent. From the beginning everything seemed to be carried out at such pace (the evidence being burnt to the ground within days), that we were dealing with closed minds. This is not the first case that such an injustice should occur and I believe that there are other cases in our system that should be readdressed eg Peter Ellis and Scott Watson.
Alex
I think there is enough doubt about this conviction that at the very least he should get a retrial. Although I'm sure the Police get most cases correct, there must be instances where they don't and the David Bain case may well be one of them. David has had a huge part of his life so far taken from him if this proves to be the case and I hope this gives him another chance.
Justice? (Sanson)
Arthur Alan Thomas was acquitted yet was there any inquiry afterwards? Questions like; what went wrong with the investigation and what changes must be made to stop this injustice from happening again! And "who was" responsible for the crime? We Have big problems with our justice systems as ongoing Government's refuse to genuinely tackle these Justice problems. The need for proper reviews and assessment is crucial to any responsible department. Until we have robust "accountability" process we can expect further unsatisfactory outcomes.
Jono
He deserved life for the knitted jerseys.
Phillip Iverson
David Bain is guilty. The unprofessional quality of the forensic procedures during the initial police investigation and the less than thorough defence case left the door wide open for this latest development. There is a mindset shared by many New Zealanders that just cannot accept, simply will not believe, that a boy-next-door sort of fellow could commit such a heinous crime. To do so would be just too unsettling for them, for a whole host of reasons. Yet the evidence against David Bain, despite all the flimsy rhetoric of the misguided Joe Karam and a bevy of gullible supporting friends, is overwhelming. There absolutely must now be a retrial, for to free him on the basis of public sentiment would be an outrageous miscarriage of justice.
Joshua Teal
I have confidence in the Privy Counsel to give reasonable decisions. Justice must take its proper course. We don't know what the outcome of another trial may bring, but he could be convicted again. The only question in my mind is whether the trial will be fair. I don't have an opinion on whether the man is guilty or not because I haven't been in the court to hear the evidence. The only thing this decision does is provide more stories for the media. Er.... yay!
Christchurch
No retrial-freedom. While reading the Privy Councils findings I saw a section that documented the deaths of the family members. All were shot and died by a single .22 bullet - even though Stephen was partly strangled - all except Laniet, who was shot 3 times. Any criminal psycologist will tell you that the perpetrator had a deep-rooted hatred for Laniet hence the 'overkill'. My theory is that Robin Bain killed the family to protect himself from the revelations of incest Laniet was about to expose, David came home from his paper round and found Robin finishing Stephen off by strangulation, a fight ensued, hence the broken glasses and lens found in Stephen's room, Robin gets free, runs through the lounge, David picks up the discarded weapon, chases his father and shoots him from behind.
Aimee Bayley
There seems to be just too much evidence that David Bain did not murder his family. Seems our justice system stuffed up again but this time they have ruined a mans life, he will never be treated normally again. Let him be set free so he can start his life over again.
Geoff Davies
There should not be a retrial. A "substantial miscarriage of justice" has occurred and should be rectified as soon as possible. David Bain should be freed immediately.
Michelle (Auckland)
I think David should be released without another trial. I also feel that he should be compensated for all those years spent behind bars!!
ex-Dunedinite
I think re-trial. Police must have thought David was guilty otherwise they would have had the case wrapped up as Murder-Suicide within days. I hardly think they decided to go to all the expense and angish when Murder-Suicide was an easy option.Re: Lundy, Watson and other cases mentioned. There was no hint of Murder-Suicide. Don't compare these cases. Police has no easy route out of these - they had to find a killer.
Ngaron
Why the duckshoving? He should be out on bail immediately, not while the powers that be dither about trying their best to hold him longer. The guy is innocent, are the powers that be frightened to come clean and say we cooked the evidence in our favour again? Have the police in NZ no conscience? What is going on?
Redsonja
Who would have wanted to kill this family? the brother/son left alive ...and the father who Dave maybe tried to frame as killing himself after killing the rest of the family,... Evidence claimed the father couldn't kill himself, he couldn't and didn't? So that left David? Who else would have wanted to kill this family? No one? If someone else wanted to kill this family? They would have known the family right?, come on, so if they knew the family don't you think they would have known David was doing a paper run? They would have known that? So what do you think they did this to frame David? Nope ... to much of a risk? You would have to be wearing rose coloured glasses and head hones to believe he didn't do it..Too much against him, and not a single bit of evidence to put a single other person at this crime...
Staci
I do believe that the evidence needs to be seriously re-looked at again. It a hard one to really make a decision on, but i believe the guy is guilty, but I also believe in fair trail, if he is defiantly found guilty, I think he should be shoot, theres enough hate and corruption in this country, let alone the world, and is about time we start getting rid of these bad "seeds" if we can.
Wayne
I do not know much about the David Bain case. Thus I do not have an opinion as to Mr Bain's guilt or innocence. But what a great guy Joe Karam is! His dedication and sacrifice in pursuit of what he believes to be right is absolutely inspirational. Our society is so much the better for having people like Joe who exemplify the best of what this country is about - fair-mindedness and compassion in equal measure. Regardless of the final outcome of this case, Joe Karam is a hero in my book.
Michelle D
As a legal secretary, I believe that the Law Lords have made the right decision in quashing David Bain's conviction and I am thrilled that David Bain will finally be getting justice. I don't believe the Crown should order a re-trial, but rather, let an innocent man out of prison and grant him bail. It was a crime he did not commit, and after reading the judgment from the highest possible Court there is, this must now be accepted, by the Crown and the public alike.
Megan Spiers
NZ Police appear to have a tendency to rush a conviction at any cost, and they all appear to be high profile cases. Arthur Alan Thomas would have to be an example. It is quite scary that an innocent person can have so much evidence stacked up against them for a conviction.
Arron
If possible there should be a re-trial with all the relevant evidence and with a new investigation eliminating all of the police cock-ups from last time. If he is then found guilty again hang him. If not give him millions in compo for the life taken away by police incompetence and our half-arse justice system. Guilty or innocent it seems like Karam is a man of principle and has sacrificed a lot for this cause that he truly believes in. His commitment sways me to believe that Bain is more likely innocent than guilty.
Zee
I think a retrial should be held. However I wonder what evidence from the Crown would be admisable in a retrial, or is their role defence only regarding the Karam findings? The possible compensation issue would be interesting. Would he (Bain) have to prove innocence?
Jennie Chapman
David Bain should be set free, pardoned & no retrial
Graeme (Hamilton)
It's only the very passionate supporters of Bain that are going to support this decision. I sincerely didn't realise so many readers of this site were delusional. A retrial would be great, then he could be found guilty again. Bring it on.
Donottrustthecourts
This is happening time and time again. The Police and the Government have an agenda to get people convicted no matter what. This is what will happen with the anti-smacking law. The irony is that white-collar criminals are not treated the same way. They get off as they have more money to defend, which is usually stolen anyway.
Skeptical
I'm not yet convinced of Bain's innocence because court winners aren't necessarily innocents. It's more about who presents most the persuasive argument,the most energy & money to pursue the case to the end, as opposed to who's speaking the truth. Just ask people who've gone through the court process in criminal or the family court. For all these years, there's been a mixed bag of versions, one from the Police and one from the David Bain defence team. Even Joe Karam's book published years ago was found to be in error by the opposing camp and equally so ,the Bain defence team claim to have found errors in the police prosecution case. So,can there be two distinct versions of the truth of what happened the night that the Bain family were murdered? Or is it a matter of whose arguments the Privy Council were more persuaded by? Because,that would be the only basis for their decision,since none of those judges were in the home when they were killed. And as in any court system, court evidence can be often selective and viewed subjectively. End of day, only God knows really and the dead. Will someone pls ask them
Jeff
It never made any sense that Robin (the father) would kill his family then wait for the computer to boot up (2-3mins in the early 1990s) in order to type a 1 line 'suicide' note. Why not just scrawl it on a piece of paper? The only reason the offender would use the computer is to conceal their handwriting - it must have been David in his attempt to fake his father's suicide
Justice Done
This a good decision. I believe the father did it after being discovered having a sexual relationship with his daughter. This was told to me years ago by someone close to the family but the Police didn't believe it or didn't want to believe it so built their filmsy case around David instead.
Birkenhead
I don't believe David should have a retrial. He has already served 12 unnecessary years in prison. He has been used as a scapegoat. I am totally thrilled for him and congratulate Joe Karam for his belief,hard work and support to David. What goes around comes around.
Keith
I think the latest decision reflects the corrupt attitude of the NZ police when it comes to court cases and the presentation of evidence. The biggest problem in my view is they dont present just facts, they are trying to paint a picture or put a "slant" on the evidence to secure a conviction rather than searching for the actual truth. The fact the police continually mask evidence they deem damaging to them securing a conviction is a real issue that needs to be dealt with asap. They purposely bend the views presented to the jury to assist in gaining a conviction, this is happening way too much in NZ and the whole system needs revamped. I have experienced this corrupt attitude, costing a term of imprisonment until a pre-appeal telephone conference revealed the police had withheld a confession from the supposed victim for about 6 months(convictions overturned with immediate release). there was no apology or redress by the courts or the police. It is shocking that this type of "justice" is occurring on what seems to be a regular basis.
Janet (Tauranga)
Court cases often produce large amounts of evidence, some of it totally irrelevant, much only peripherally relevant, and usually only a few pertinent. The items presented to the Privy Council were in the first two categories. The two really pertinent items do not appear to have been considered by the Privy Council, namely (1)the impossibility of Robin Bain being able to shoot himself with a rifle with silencer attached; and (2) the fact that Robin Bain was found with a full bladder of dark urine (ie) urine that had been stored for a length of time. It is highly unlikely that a man desperate for a pee would wonder around the house shooting his family, then shoot himself without first relieving himself. I think that the police handled this case and the evidence poorly, but their incompetence does not make David Bain innocent. A retrial would give them an opportunity to present the relevant evidence pertinently, without the distraction of the plethora of irrelevant matter!
Max Moss
Our NZ justice system is too incestuous. We need access to independent judicial reviews by non-New Zealanders such as the Privy Council.
Philip
Incompetent police work from the outset. How many times would Joe Karam et al have tried before they got the verdict that they sought. And bearing in mind the police case was flimsy, shoddy and full of holes the Privy Council decision is the correct one - based on the evidence laid out. The quashed verdict however does not mean innocence it means that the case is not proved. Good luck David 12 years is more than a long time in jail based on what the police presented - get on with your life and thank your God that there people like Joe Karam to fight crusades.
Jonathon Ngaio (Wellington)
I have read most of the Privy Council's ruling on the Bain case. It makes clear that the police investigation and prosecution was of very poor quality and biased. It shows many examples of poor judgment.. Our Appeal court is clearly shown to be a farce. Our media have obviously failed to impartially inform us of the significant details of this case. I am ashamed to be a from this colonial country of thickheads. We should be all out marching in the streets, asking for the appeal court judges involved in this and the Peter Ellis case to be dismissed today.
Trinity (Canterbury)
It was wonderful to hear the news of the quashed conviction. David and his supporters should be proud of their fight. Compensation should be paid to David and he should be released immediately. The NZ police have shown time and time again how corrupt they are, they needed a conviction to make them look good. Heads should roll over this but once again there will be a cover up.
Te Kuiti
I hope the taxpayer is not going to have to pay for a retrial. If the police want to try and clear their name then let them pay for it out of their own pockets. It looks like a dodgy police investigation. I, along with others, recall the Arthur Alan Thomas fiasco. Looks like Government have made a serious decision to get rid of the Privy Council. We need that outside independent authority.
Murray (Auckland)
Did Bain do it? Could Bain have done it? I don't know. How can I have an opinion if I haven't seen all the evidence? Even then, what qualifies me to make a judgment based solely on the evidence? I recently watched the Inside New Zealand documentary series where 12 people are brought in to act as a jury in prominent cases to see what verdict they come up with. What shocked me was how easily the jurors were swayed by their own emotions r