KEY POINTS:
A large rise in the number of speeding tickets given to people driving between 1 km/h and 10 km/h over the limit has caused National to reopen the debate about whether police are instructed to meet a ticket quota.
Statistics released yesterday showed that, in 2000-01, 315 people were ticketed for going 1-10 km/h over the limit. In 2005-06, 41 people were prosecuted for going 1-5 km/h over the limit and 34,651 for going 6-10 km/h over it.
This forum debate has now closed. Here is a selection of your views on the topic.
C Williams
How many infringement notices have been issued to motorists who follow too close? More dangerous than speeding in most circumstances.
Rob VP
Do they exist, most probably, in some form. Do I care? No! And for years I have been driving for a living. Speeding is one easy measure of a motorists' observance of the law. Tailgating and other dangerous overtaking are bad habits which are much harder to prove, even though in my view they are much more dangerous. What makes me laugh is when I slow down to 30km/h for a patch of roadworks and then have a queue of cars behind me trying to overtake in the roadworks section, including the dawdler who couldn't even get to 80km/h on the open road a while back. And let us not even start about the annoying habit some drivers have of running at 80km/h until the passing lane when they kick it up to 105km/h only to drop back to 80km/h at the end of the lane. Can you tell I drive trucks for a living yet?So in my view the Police can continue to issue tickets for speeding in the 5-10km/h over the limit, but I just wish other, more dangerous offences were dealt to with just as much "enthusiasm" as speed.
Kent
I have got five classes of licence, have been driving for 27 years, and travel at the speed limit everywhere unless that would be unsafe - dawdling and dawdlers p- me off. I have never had a crash or a ticket. If you want to avoid fines and crashes, take it from me: staying within the speed limit works.
Michelle
Oh come on, we all saw the leaked faxes and even testimony from cops and relatives/friends of cops about how they have to meet a "quota", so they are insulting us if they declare otherwise. There are many out there who deserve to be ticketed and the cops can more than likely meet those quotas on most drivers I see around. What worries me is when the cop can not meet his quota and its his performance review which is on the line. What is he going to do? he's going to pull me over for being 1km over, even though my odometer does not drill down far enough for me to measure that, or he is going to pull me over doing 50km/h and fine me for doing 60km/h because he doesnt want to lose his bonus or get a poor performance review. Can you believe I got ticketed for no warrant on my car in my own driveway, not even on the public road? And they called me liar. I also got fined for parking on yellow lines in the Lower Hutt CBD, and I live and studied in Upper Hutt and wasnt there. ! Once again I was called a liar. Can they blame us for being worried about corruption when we are faced with situations like this? I dont doubt for a second there will be people persecuted for uncommitted crimes in order for some corrupt cop to protect his performance based pay-rise.
C.McLeay
Its fantastic to read all these views, but what good does it do? Do the Herald send them on to the Police Minister, Whats her name? She hardly ever makes an appearance to comment on anything! Or to even be remembered. When she does, it is spin doctoring at its worst. Please put a paper bag on her head, then the comments might sound feasible. What is wrong with this picture? If corrupt Government departments, including the Police want to prove they are clean and actually know what they are doing, they could listen to the people who pay their wages, we are their employers, not the other way around.
Life is full of common sense answers, i.e. what does it cost the taxpayer to look after an accident victim, right from the moment of that accident involving police resources, Hospital resources, ongoing care etc? Therefore put in place the things that would stop the extraordinary expense these accidents cause. 1. Speed bumps all around the Schools. 2. Large viewable signs to actually let you know a school is just around the corner! 3. Speed bumps just before all lights! 4. A Huge advertising campaign. Now all this will initially cost money, but will save millions and millions of our money.
Jim Cable
Police administration, as it seems to be understood today, appears to be an utter shambles. On one hand traffic-ticket quotas are vehemently denied by the Commissioner - yet on the other, an instruction within Central Districts to keep issuing tickets so it can hold its No 1 position in the country indicates a very different understanding of the subject. Once our police were cops 24-hours a day - yet now, if "off-duty", they are penalised, "black-marked" and actively discouraged for attending to obvious criminal matters or attempting to carry out duties that our society once expected, nay demanded, of them. There is something very rotten in police administration. It is my belief that it stems directly from seriously flawed attitudes present in the Beehive.
Daniel
For all those who have ridiculed my earlier comment and think that a fine imposed on someone who drives 1 km/h over the speed limit is justified, think about this: If your speedometer reads 98 km/h but your actual speed is 102 km/h, as measured by the more accurate equipment the police use, you will be fined. The 10 km/h margin of error takes into account speedometer uncertainty. I am all for reducing the speed limits (eg. 90 km/h instead of 100 km/h) if that will save lives but, as someone with a scientific background, removing uncertainty in measurements is scientifically unethical.
Jim Donald
The police may as well move in with the Inland Revenue Department. They would feel right at home since they would have so much in common - draconian powers to harass the citizens who pay their salaries!! Speed alone doesnt kill, but when that is allied to the atrocious driving conditions experienced so often on our third world roads where the only protection from oncoming traffic is a painted line, it is a different story. Instead of hiding behind trees at the end of passing lanes the Police should be doing their job which is to protect the public by apprehending those drivers who are driving dangerously - and this does not necessarily mean just exceeding the arbitrary speed limit.
D.H.R.
Police are told in training that they have to collect their salary off the roads, of course it is a revenue gathering exercise. I am also told that the equivalent of the entire annual budget for the police is paid out in benefits every 21days, so what does that tell us about the Govt. priorities. Do not blame the men and women in blue, they have to do a very unpleasant job and have to implement the policies from on high, so sheet the responsibility back to the people who make the rules. We are all living under a virtual dictatorship in this country.
Paul G
I have absolutely no doubt that there are traffic quotas. I have in the past been given a ticket for going 11km/h over the speed limit, fair enough, but I resent the fact that so many racers race around on the main avenues in Christchurch until all hours of the morning, and there never seems to be a cop there to catch them. What are they doing?? Are they taking care of normal police duties, or filling in paperwork on the tickets they have handed out that day for people that have been marginally over the limit...This government, and their sneaky policies are a disgrace. They are a law unto themselves. I will bet our political leaders chauffeured cars dont stick rigidly to the speed limit (Helens motorcade, classic example)... the difference is, if they are caught they don't get fined. It is just another wonderful form of taxation to fill Cullens lolly jar.
Peter
Of course they are, but isnt that suppose to be a good thing? I presumed it is just a way to push police to work harder at stopping traffic offences. I would hope they spend more time on catching reckless drivers and serious speeders than minor speed offenses though.IMHO, maybe they just need a better quota system so they fills more quota when they catch serious offences.
Alan Wilkinson
The reduced 4 km/hr (from 5 km/hr) tolerance near schools is ludicrous posturing by the police, which will achieve absolutely nothing useful. The differences in reaction time between drivers of differing skill and attentitiveness, not to mention the quality of their vehicles, is far far more significant (by a factor of at least 10) than such trivial differences in vehicle speed. Unfortunately traffic policing policy has fallen into the hands of idiots and we all suffer the consequences.
James Burnett
The performance-based revenue generating actions of the Police alienate motorists when they catch people slightly above the speed limit in white spots away from schools. On many roads the speed limit is too low. Raise the speed limit to fix the problem.
SB
I would just like to add - to all of the people who are bleating on, saying you should be able to drive 60 kph to make up for inaccurate speedometers, you need to realise you should still be driving 50 according to your speedometer - not 60 (if your speedometer is inaccurate and you are driving 60 then you could really be driving 70 or upwards, no wonder you all get tickets!!). The leeway that you can drive up to 10 kph over the speed limit only counts if you are actually driving the correct speed limit according to your speedometer.
SF
Well, I am not surprised our road toll is so high! The police still have not got the message. It is not speed that kills, it is the sudden stop. There countries that have no speed limits on certain roads, some countries even have minimum speed levels on motorways (these countries have a lower road toll than NZ).Formula 1 drivers, Rally drivers - all of this is proof that speed does not kill. What does kill is the lack of driving skills and the wrong driver attitude. That relates to the minimal requirements needed in NZ to sit a licence. Quit the speeding campaign, quit the drink driving campaign (as this obviously does not work either seeing the last 3 weekend blitzes, use money and resources where it will make a difference in the long run and that is driver education!
Jayne
Most of those issued with tickets do not pay them any way. I have a friend who has had unpaid fines for about five years now. Court costs have been added, a warrant issued for his arrest nothing happens. He has been caught since for several offences ie failing to provide a license, not wearing seat belt unwarranted car bald tyres - you name it and he just laughs it of. They know where he lives. What a waste of time and effort by the police and courts. Perhaps they should impound vehicles immediately and sell them to cover costs, three strikes in 2 years and u get locked up 4 a short period or perhaps the cops that issue these tickets should be made to follow up on getting them paid or face a penalty in their income.
Glenn Marvin
Are we really focusing on what really matters here? What it does identify is that there are still so many people that exceed the speed limit. I fully admit to regularly travelling up to 10km over the speed limit but also expect to pay the fine if stopped. We all know the limit and if we exceed it we should be prepared to pay up. Good on the Police I say. Zero tolerance is the best way to encourage conformance to the rules and create a cultural shift in attitude to speeding - as we have slowly seen happen with drink driving. If we did not speed, the police stats would go down it is that simple!
Clarke
I think the Police are sending a very clear message - particularly around schools - that every motorist should take heed of: the Police want you to watch your speedo, not the road.
AFP
How accurate is a Car Speedo at 50km/h? How accurate is a radar unit at 50km/h? How accurate is a Police Car speedo? How often when you get a WOF is the speed checked for accuracy or for that matter when it imported and certified for sale? I have checked 5 cars speedo with my GPS system and only one was accurate at 50km/h. The others ranged from 48 to 52km/h. I also have a radar detector. It is interesting that police will sit on the side of the road and blip you as you approach. How fair is it that the recorded speed you are doing is a faction of a second rather than say an average of 6 seconds. I have also witnessed a Police car slowing down very heavy traffic behind him so that there was sufficient gap between the car in front of him so he could radar cars coming towards him.
Stephanie
I think they should have quotas. Maybe the more money they get from speeding fines, the more money they will have to spend on solving robberies. It is not like the government give the Police nearly enough money to do their job properly. And with all the bad press the cops get, no-one even wants to be a cop anymore! If you are stupid enough to break the law, then you will reap the consequences.
SF
Strange question really - the answer is obvious. Yes, of course they are! It has been admitted by several police officers over the last few years. Has anyone lately read the job descriptions of police officers and considered the actual reason why we have police in NZ? What is the reason for their existence? Where are their priorities? Publicity of police wrong doings is not enhancing the police image. And to turn around in a muscle flexing exercise to "show the public who is boss" this latest episode is pathetic. Grow up and act your age! No wonder we have so much crime in this country, if police acts like this. There is a huge list of things to do - none of which includes speed ticketing. Sort yourselves out and get real! Police in our area constantly drive around with their cell phones glued to their ear, headlights and/or brake lights not working, speeding, etc, etc. Some years back a number of people out walking and I saw a several police officers heading off to a training camp in North Auckland, driving in a convoy of 7 cars at 85 km/h through a 30km/h reserve!!! Good one guys - great example!
Gavin
The police should be separated for the Traffic division. Ie... Bring back the MOT (Ministry of Transport) So we can have the area dedicated for traffic safety and infringements.
Rick
Whilst the Police are right in issuing tickets for this (relatively) minor infringement it is infuriating that as a result other crimes go unattended. As an example I have witnessed in South Auckland in the past two weeks three separate occasions where people have blatantly and dangerously driven through red lights in front of marked police cars, yet not one was pulled over?? Is the $150 fine not worth getting out of the car for?? Everyday I would see on average four or five cars run red lights just on my way to and from work. Whilst speeding (by up to ten kph) could be argued as being unintentional, you have malicious and deliberately dangerous drivers that remain largely unmolested as they speed through busy city intersections. If there is to be a quota make it on red light runners, as there would be enough in the Auckland region to fully sustain the national allotment, and while they're at it raise the fine from the current $150.
Ian
We could really annoy the Police and prevent them from filling their quotas by obeying the law? And that way they would have more time to have group sex with consenting 16 year olds.
Iris
Meeting quotas is wrong. Issuing ticket is not something to achieve. It is a way to punish those speeding not to speed again. My friend even accused of going through a red light so that they can give her the ticket.
Adam
Yes , this is a revenue gathering exercise. There is a quota to meet.
Why arent the police this pedantic chasing real criminals rather than some poor motorist distracted for a second & exceeding the limit by 1 or 2 kms.
Daniel
I think that ticketing in the range 1-10 km/h over the speed limit is ridiculous in a scientific sense. How can someone be absolutely certain they are travelling 1 km/h over the speed limit? We only have our speedometer to rely on. Speedometers are not normally calibrated as part of the WOF service, so then how are we to know the speed we are doing is correct. Also, I do not recall many speedometers with 1 km/h graduations. Does all this mean our less accurate gauging of speed can be overruled by the scientifically proven and highly accurate equipment the police use? Why not reduce speed limits by 10 km/h while retaining sensible scientific principles, for example if the open road limit was set at 90 km/h a driver would only get ticketed above 100 km/h. It seems the police have disregarded errors associated with speedometer measurements. Would the police rather we kept our eyes on our speedometers than on the road?
Thom Grey
If the police are going to crack down and deny us that pleasure of 10kph, then speed limits need to be changed. Especially 50 areas. 50 areas should lurk around schools, yes, but should not crop up each time a sign of civilization rears its ugly head. But of course, it is easier to ping someone for a petty 10 kph over the speed limit than going after the rapists, murderers, and misc rapscallions out there. More money in it. Plus, the way our country is going, its not the cops who can really go after rapists and murderers. Its internal affairs. And traffic offences are so much less embarrassing than arresting each other.
Phillip
Violent crime is sky-rocketing. Gangs terrorize around with relative impunity. Street thugs intimidate, bash and rob locals and tourists alike, knowing the police will likely never find them. Police "brush off" 111 callers if they dont consider their report serious enough. Or they dont have the staff to respond to serious incidents and calls. Yet they have time to sit around, dozing on the roadsides, manning speed cameras?!?! No wonder no one feels safe any more in this country! Criminals have little to fear from our Keystone Cops, as they concentrate on speeding motorists, and leave the real troublemakers to create havoc!
Leon
I think the Minister of Police should tell us exactly what pressure is being applied on the Police in regards to blatant profiteering activities such as speeding tickets. It does seem over the top... and on the topic of "speeding'" the Police seem completely ignorant of research that shows that its not so much the speed that is at issue. They need to get a consultant in perhaps? We are getting a rather sordid and realistic picture of the NZ Police finally... Rapists, thugs, bullies, gangsters operating the biggest racket in the country! Aside from the Government of course!
Sara
So what if the police do have a quota? Have we all become blind to the speeders on our roads killing our loved ones? Personally I am getting sick of motorists who appear to have their own quota of how many pedestrians they can nearly mow down in a day! Get real, the only people worried about quotas is those who speed. Quite frankly the way I see people drive around my town of Masterton, we need more traffic control and a bigger quota!!! Half the time I hardly see a traffic patrol car on our streets as it is - so if the officers are getting pushed to do a better job, so be it and give that department more staff to meet it!
Charles M
All this talk is nonsense. Bottom line is that if you are caught speeding, then no one else is to blame for it except you. Cough up and pay the fine or drive under the limit and keep the roads safer.
KiwiTT
What happened to the 10km/h threshold? A lot of cars have potentially inaccurate speedos, so this threshold seemed fair. Now a lot of innocent people abiding to what their speedo says and then still get fined / penalised. If the police want to increase their support for traffic control, they should focus on the high speeders (10+ km/h over the limit limit), drunks, reckless drivers and unwarranted cars.
Tim
Unless the speed limit is sensible, being pedantic about exact speeds is just money making not safety related. Some open road, roadworks leave 30kph signs where the road is clear, try driving on an empty clear open road at less than 30kph, yeah right. Its the demerits that are the real issue, especially if you drive regularly on heavily policed open roads. Do cars that hold up traffic get the same attention? do slow vehicles keep left? While school safety is another matter, speed revenues are not about safety. I have no respect for such policing.
Heather Coates
I absolutely agree that police are more interested in quotas than safety. Take one example just north of my city. There is a passing lane and all regular traffic obey the limit until they are around the corner, see if he parked in his usual place under the only tree, and then if he isnt there can hoot it. If he chose to park at the dangerous end of the passing lane drivers would not be able to exceed their limit while using the passing lanes as they would not be able to see him until it was too late. They would also catch the stupidity we see of drivers who are staying far too long out in the overtaking lane and causing traffic to have to swerve to avoid a collision. Probably not as much revenue but certainly less dangerous driving. We see many examples of this.
C Keyser
I support the police and what they stand for. Having emigrated to New Zealand from a country where law and order has collapsed, it is important to me that this does not happen here. From experience we know that, to a great extent, this breakdown is caused by a lack of public support for the police. Therefore, I am greatly concerned about the current negative image of the police with the New Zealand public. It is quite astounding that in a peaceful country like New Zealand, the police find it necessary to make themselves guilty of brutality, assault, rape and even public acts of brutality and blatant misuse of authority and the use of excessive force. (based on what is reported in the media) This unethical - and even criminal - behavior of the police is guaranteed to lose them public support.
The unethical application (in my opinion)of speed ticketing has the same effect. Actually, because this new practice is applied to people who are generally law abiding and as a rule will never even meet the police or have any interaction with police, I think it creates a huge feeling of mistrust in the police and their practices. It is bound to compound the horrible reputation of the police at present and may contribute to the feeling that the police are in fact abusing the law, rather than enforcing it - and as a result cannot be trusted.
Considering the inherent inaccuracy of radar, the potential for misuse by unscrupulous operators - you only need to read the reports of the manufacturers (especially the "pop" facility of the radar)- and at times maybe deliberate targeting by police of vehicles on roads that have steep inclines and so on, it is no wonder that the general public finds ticketing within 10kph of the limit as "unacceptable". Adding to that the horrible image of the police at present, with alleged frequent police rape of women, police beatings of handcuffed prisoners (a cowardly act indeed) and other police abuses, it is no wonder that there is a public backlash. It is my opinion - given the limitations of the equipment - that any ticket within ten per cent of the speed limit is highly suspect. Hence, I think this practice is unethical and downright dishonest and should be stopped. Given the terrible police image, abandoning this (in my opinion) unethical application of law should go a long way to reassure the general public that the police is in fact serious about law and order and their ethics and can indeed be trusted. As a supporter of the police, I really hope they can start to cope with the "modern" public and learn how to deal with them. Public sentiment toward the police cannot be helped by flippantly enforcing rules that are perceived as clearly suspect by the general public. We do not need 1950s policing tactics in 2007! Please get us police managers who understand this before the police image is damaged to such an extent that law and order is threatened.
Colin Munro
Police issue tickets to those who exceed the speed limit set down as a law of our country. People who get ticketed are breaking the law and should expect to be penalised for it. Why is is it that the politically motivated "Police bashers" cannot see that and instead just let the police get on with the job they are there for. If you dont speed, you will not break the law and you will not get a ticket or are certain people too dumb to see that? In spite of all the recent publicity, it should be remembered that 99 per cent of Police Officers are doing a great job and the force should not be condemned because of the disgraceful actions of a few renegades. How many of these "bashers" who constantly speak out against the Police would step in to do the unenviable job as a police officer? As the song says "Not many, if any".
Sarah
I feel that enough focus has been made on this particular aspect of road safety. I believe that on a whole we have improved & are now staying closer to the speed limit. My concern is the amount of people going through red lights & would suggest that instead of having the amount of time and effort along with speed cameras used, if they are short of revenue, try a few red light cameras. The amount of times there are near misses and for that matter, situations where we are caused to wait while people coming from another direction are using up our "go" time at the lights, seems to be continually in
Bill Hall
During my time with the Ministry of Transport there was no such thing as a ticket quota. We were assessed on the average number issued in our area. As an example: if the average was 100 per month for our area and a particular officer was only giving 20 per month he was asked why. Quite often it was because the officer may have been on heavy vehicle duties, driver licencing duties, accident investigation etc., or rarely just plain lazy. After driving on NZ roads (after being overseas for 15 years) I suspect the issue of higher ticket numbers is the fact that NZ is full of arrogant, discourteous and drivers, that appear to me, to basically dont just give a damn about the law. We can save a fortune on red traffic lights by removing them. It is apparent that in the eyes of Auckland drivers that they do not exist anyway.
Albert
Traffic police should not have merged with the police force in the first place. The merger could well be one of the contributors of increased in crime as the police spend most their time issuing traffic tickets whilst "small time" criminal investigations take a back seat. About time the two divisions split up and they take charge of their respective distinctive roles.
Jono
If the aim of speeding tickets is safety then sitting on the side of a straight road hidden behind a tree is not going to promote safe driving at all. Issuing speeding tickets is purely revenue gathering and has very little if any effect on the road toll. Increase safety at black spots and other high incident areas by putting a camera or police patrol in these areas and making them clearly visible. Alert motorists that these cameras exist as they approach the area and you will have everyone slowing down. This will make the areas safer, and those who get caught speeding through these areas have been sufficiently warned and caught fair and square.
Steve
Does not this issue typify the dilemma of being in opposition? Police being overzealous at doing their job, it does rather undermine the usual National Party election year "more cops and tougher cops" rhetoric which I am certain will resurface at the appropriate time.
Pete
What else is new in a socialist agenda, this government is sowing the seeds of regulating human behaviour on the one hand and reaping its penalties on the other. It explains why there is a continuous boom at the rich end and at the same a sliding depression at the other end. It is the only government in the world, which has managed to run both extremes of the economic cycle at the same time.
Andrew Montgomery
I can not understand how it is that so many are complaining about getting speeding tickets. It is dead simple. If you do not want a ticket, do not speed. What has happened to personal responsibility? It is not revenue gathering as your misinformed readers assert, the government gets plenty of money from cigarette tax which is why it wisely makes cigarettes available from every dairy and gas station in the country. It is all about bringing down the road toll. And to all those that get sick from cigarettes, the government wants you to keep smoking so it gets lots of money and you dont get old and draw a pension. Obviously the government and Annette King our erstwhile minister of health care for you deeply and are only doing what is in the collective best interest. So next time you get a ticket dont get cross but offer thanks to our tirelessly caring government.
Kris
have yet to see a police officer pull over someone for impeding the traffic flow. It would be nice to see someone who can not find the accelerator pedal, takes 500m to reach 40km/h and dawdles across an intersection, get a ticket for holding up and frustrating all of the motorists behind them. Better yet those ignorant people who insist on doing 80km in the outside lane on the motorway with no care or consideration for their fellow road users should be penalised at least as much as a "speeding motorist" who 99 per cent of the time is driving in a safe and courteous manner.
PK
There is a quota, it may not be called that but there is. A book of tickets every month per officer I was told. The cops need to clean up their organisation. Too much sex on bonnets and nothing being done about it until 20 years later. Cops parked in cycle lanes but they don't get tickets. I have seen a cop car with a broken tail light on duty. Not warrantable - should get a fine. I rang the police and informed them and they treated meike a criminal. Prime Minister speeds through the countryside scattering chickens and quiet country folk and the cops chip in to pay the fines their colleagues got. Then later on it is all swept under the carpet. Why should I worry if I am 1km over the speed limit?
Larry
I do not believe there is a quota for tickets. Police do not give anywhere enough tickets. Speeding is chronic in most areas and if drivers do not want tickets, slow down. Pretty simple unless you are stupid.
Terry Crosby
Speeding tickets are all about revenue gathering rather than road safety. The whole debate about slowing down drivers by means of more and more, and heavier and heavier fines, reminds me of the saying that the height of stupidity is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result.
Murray M
Great! The answer; "Dont speed, you wont get a ticket" Sadly though, this message will not get through to most of the speeders who think they have a right to put everyone else at risk by their actions. Unfortunately someone was short in the brain department when these Neanderthals recidivist speeders were created.
Lars
Our crime rate is rising. We have more murders now than ever before, We have more violent assaults than ever before, We have the highest rate of unsolved crime now than ever before, We have more people getting away with serious crime now than ever before, we have more youth crime than ever before, We have more drug crimes now than ever before, Our road toll is still unacceptable, We still have a huge drink drive issue, Yet our govt instructs our police to chase revenue by target someone going 57 in a 50 zone. Great policy! At the end of the day though the police are only following the policy set down by the Labour Govt which is further alienating the police from the general public.
Joe Metcalfe
Yet another ridiculous
