Labour MP Willie Jackson talks about why he is committed to staying in politics.
Willie Jackson, a key member of Labour’s caucus, maintains a good relationship with rivals Te Pāti Māori.
He has just been given responsibility for Social Development and is the campaign chair for the seven Māori seats.
He has to help shape Māori policy that does not scare off Pākeha or alienate Māori.
Considering Willie Jackson is Labour’s most senior Maori MP, he spends an awful amount of time in our interview referencing Te Pāti Māori. But that’s understandable.
Labour’s relationship with Te Pāti Māori will be a crucial factor in the party’s election prospects next year - too close and Labour willbe seen as too radical; too hostile and it will be seen as unable to form a stable government.
At this point, Jackson is mainly differentiating Labour from Te Pāti Māori.
“We ain’t going to embrace some of their stuff and they ain’t going to embrace some of ours though. That’s just how it goes.
“We are not just there for Māori,” he says. “That will irritate them sometimes.
“We’ll see how it goes. The relationship is cordial, good and respectful – the same as it is with the Greens - but there are no promises in terms of what happens at the end of the term.”
Jackson avowedly supports policies promoting partnership, not separatism.
Jackson is No. 5 in Labour’s line-up, a staunch loyalist to leader Chris Hipkins, and one of three front-bench Māori MPs in the caucus with Willow-Jean Prime and Peeni Henare.
He is a list MP for Labour which went into the 2023 campaign with five of the seven Māori seats and came out with just one, Ikaroa-Rawhiti.
He was a former Mana Motuhake – Alliance MP in 1999 – 2002, and immediately became Employment Minister in the Labour – NZ First Coalition in 2017, then Minister for Maori Development and Minister of Broadcasting in Labour’s second term. He was the de facto leader of Labour’s Māori caucus of 14 that term (21 per cent of the caucus), which has now shrunk to eight (23 per cent).
Most polls put the centre-left bloc, Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Maori, ahead or neck and neck with the ruling centre-right Coalition of National, Act and NZ First.
And the possibility of being returned to Government, which he puts at 50:50, excites him.
It would make today’s Government the first National-led one-term Government.
Jackson had originally thought he would leave soon after Labour was defeated in 2023. The adjustment to Opposition was major.
“It is so full on as a Government minister and then you’re gone, and people are not queuing up to meet with you.”
Willie Jackson says Māori want fire and brimstone as well as pragmatism. Photo / Mark Mitchell
But he was asked by activists outside the party and colleagues in Parliament to stay on, not least to represent Māori who don’t support Te Pāti Māori – and that was most Māori. Half of Māori were not on the Māori roll, and of those that were, most voted Labour in their party vote.
“They want some fire and brimstone but they want pragmatic solutions as well,” he said.
He admires Te Pāti Māori, that is clear.
“What Te Pāti Māori has done is target a lot of these young ones and I think that’s great because a lot of those young ones weren’t voting anyway.
“It’s clear that they targeted them with the line ‘we own the whole country’ and never mind the Labour ‘sell-out’ position- which is a partnership position.”
Asked if he considered himself a moderate compared with Te Pāti Māori, he said: “I don’t know if I’d call myself a moderate – I don’t think anyone has called me that - but I’d say I’m a bit more conservative than Te Pāti Māori and I’m a bit more pragmatic I’d say.”
Hipkins took the unusual step last year of saying Māori did not cede sovereignty when they signed the Treaty of Waitangi – most National and Labour leaders in the past have avoided the question or said Māori did cede sovereignty.
Jackson continues to praise Hipkins taking the position – which is contrary to Crown Law’s position - and said he did not foresee problems if they got back into Government.
“That doesn’t mean it’s going to be Rhodesia or anything like that. It just can’t be.
“We have five per cent of land in this country. That’s how it’s going to stay. But it might mean we have a Labour Government that looks at pushing forward in terms of opportunity for Māori, in terms of strengthening the partnership,” said Jackson.
At the cabinet table in February 2023, with Chris Hipkins and Carmel Sepuloni at the front and Willie Jackson fourth from left. Photo / Mike Mitchell
“That’s what most Māori want. They are pragmatic and practical. They don’t suddenly want the return of the country.”
He remained proud of Hipkins’ position. There was nothing to be scared of and it did not mean separatism.
“I think we could have a strong partnership going forward,” he said. “I am not into separatism...not at all.
“I want to partner with Pākeha New Zealand, our ethnic minorities. It is the best way forward for everyone, working together, not working separately.”
Jackson accepts that one of the reasons the general public rejected Labour at the 2023 election was because of what he called “identity politics”.
“We’ve got to take people with us. As much as identity is incredibly important – and I’m someone who has always advocated for Māori initiatives – the criticism that we did not take enough people with us last time is something I’ve considered and I think there is something in that,” he said.
The party is moving cautiously on new policy. Leader Chris Hipkins has said it will not simply promise to reinstate the policies the electorate rejected in 2023, nor would it ditch all the policies passed by the current Government, a move Jackson supports.
“The gang patches are a classic example,” Jackson said.
”Just because we didn’t throw gang patches out, doesn’t mean we are suddenly going to reintroduce them.”
Hipkins said recently it would be unlikely that Labour would lift the ban on gang insignia imposed by the current Government.
“I support that,” said Jackson. “ I know it made a few Māori Party people upset but I also know there’s a number in Māori communities who are feeling quite comfortable with it.
“On my own marae (Ngā Whare Waatea in Mangere) where I’m the chair, I have banned patches for years,” he said.
“Mum banned them. Dad banned them, I banned them. And many marae are like that. Why? Because some of our people find it a bit intimidating, that’s why. So we do get the principle of it.”
Hipkins also said recently that any parliamentary commissioner for the Treaty of Waitangi as proposed by Te Pāti Māori could not have veto powers over Parliament.
“They get a bit hōha with us sometimes as we do with them, but that’s how things work.”
Jackson has once again been appointed campaign chair for the Maori seats and said Labour would be standing in all seven of them.
Potential candidates had been identified across the country with the exception of Hauraki-Waikato held by 22-year-old Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke.
“It’s a bit hard to stand against someone who’s just got a billion hits on social media,” said Jackson, regarding the viral video of her haka during the vote on the Treaty of Waitangi Principles Bill.
Te Pāti Māori MP Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke ripping up the bill before starting a haka in November last year. Photo / RNZ
But even then, he said, no seat was a certainty. They were volatile and had been held by Labour, Te Pāti Māori and New Zealand First at different times.
“History tells you that anyone can get beaten in a Māori seat.”
In Hipkins’ recent reshuffle, Jackson kept Māori Development but picked up the significant responsibility of Social Development from former minister Carmel Sepuloni. That will include looking at the social welfare benefits system, sanctions and work obligations, emergency housing, and superannuation.
He does not support any move for Māori to get the pension earlier – once promoted by the Māori Party – because they die earlier.
“That won’t happen,” he said, adding that it hadn’t been finally decided.
“It would cause resentment not just with the right but with the left also,” he said.
“You’d get so much resentment from elder Pākeha people. As much as we do need target programmes, that sort of programme is dangerous and too divisive. We want to take everyone with us.”
That did not mean an end to targeted programmes such as those for law students or medical students, which had been successful.
“I think one of the challenges for us is we’ve got to have a more economic approach in terms of things, a class approach. We want to take people with us.”
Willie Jackson has just been given responsibility for Social Development. Photo / Mark Mitchell
Jackson talks a lot about funding. He said that in 2017, when Labour was elected to power, the combined targeted funding for Māori was about $120 million. But in the second half of its six-year term, it was averaging $1 billion for Māori initiatives including health, Whanau Ora, housing, and employment.
“That’s what I got a lot of satisfaction out of as a minister, to get that type of funding within the system. It’s what keeps me in politics. I didn’t come in here just to be an MP or a minister. I came in here to try and get some advancement for our people and working people too.”
He was not sure whether the Maori Health Authority policy would just be reinstated – but the policy did not go far enough for Te Pāti Māori.
“The big problem for Māori in terms of Māori in health has always been access, and funding and resourcing,” he said. “Whether we put it back in, I’m not sure but one thing is for sure, it has been a huge area of under-resourcing.”
Jackson did not dismiss the possibility that Whānau Ora could be expanded for health or social development services.
“Whether it’s gang patches, whether it’s Maori Health Authority, whether it’s Whanau Ora, we are going to sit back and have a look at these policies and there’ll be no automatic reintroduction.”
“You have to get them out of that mode of just picking up a dole check,” he said.
“You’ve got to put some obligations on whānau. I think that’s what we all want to do whether in Labour or National. It’s how you do that but you can’t just have a punitive approach. You’ve got to have an approach that is more embracing.”
