Winston Peters (left) and Judith Collins in January. Photo / Mark Mitchell
Winston Peters (left) and Judith Collins in January. Photo / Mark Mitchell
Deputy Prime Minister and New Zealand First leader Winston Peters has decided to “side with Judith” over his MP Shane Jones’ controversial “communist” judge remark, saying “it should not have been said”.
The senior minister raised eyebrows after officials’ notes from a May meeting between ministers and seafood industry representatives showed he referred to High Court Justice Cheryl Gwyn as a “communist”. While defending that comment, he went on to say there were “elements of totalitarianism” in the “creep” of some judicial decisions.
Speaking to The Country on Tuesday, Peters said MPs needed to be “delicate” in how they expressed concerns about a judge given the separation of powers.
“Judith is right. You can’t have those sorts of comments about a judge,” Peters said.
“The question is, is that appropriate to align against someone who at a certain age is more mature, and whether that is an answerable question or not, it should not have been said,” Peters said.
“I’m afraid I have to side with Judith on this matter. I said to Shane, I know how frustrating it is, but frankly, the separation between the courts and politics is a critical part to our democracy, it is why we have a quality democracy. The lack of separation in other countries means they have no democracy at all. It is a serious issue we are defending here.”
NZ First leader Winston Peters (right) with Shane Jones. Photo / Adam Pearse
While Jones acknowledged on Monday it was “treacherous territory” for a minister to comment on a judge’s personality, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon explained the comment last week as being “descriptive, not critical”. He believed it was consistent with requirements for ministers not to criticise the judiciary.
Following the Herald’s interview with Jones, Labour leader Chris Hipkins posted on X: “Amazing to see a minister back down yet the guy whose job it is to actually enforce ministerial standards does nothing”.
Shane Jones now says his own comments criticizing a judge were “treacherous territory” yet just last week the Prime Minister said he had no issue with them. Amazing to see a Minister back down yet the guy whose job it is to actually enforce ministerial standards does nothing.
Labour’s justice spokesman Duncan Webb asked the Attorney-General a Written Parliamentary Question about whether she was concerned about Jones’ “communist” comment and if she had raised the matter with him.
“The Attorney-General has an important role in defending the judiciary by answering improper or unfair public criticism of judges, which they cannot answer themselves,” Collins responded.
“Even though the comments to which the member refers were made with intention or believe that comments would not be made public, I spoke with the Hon Shane Jones to remind him of the importance of maintaining the important convention of comity.”
She noted the Cabinet Manual says ministers “should not make comments that can be taken as comment on the impartiality or ability of any judge”.
“I wrote to ministers earlier this year reminding them of their obligations in this regard.”
Jones couldn’t “walk back” that “communist” comment, he said, but the Attorney-General had reminded him that “everything that is recorded, said by a minister in formal meetings is a reflection on Cabinet and she wants to see an improvement”.
The minister has previously defended other comments – such as the “totalitarianism” one – by pointing out they were about the Waitangi Tribunal, which is not technically a court, but a commission of inquiry.
On Monday, Jones said it’s been pointed out to him that some of those on the tribunal – including the chair – are judges. They are also “by and large covered by this cloak as well of comity”, Jones said.
Asked if that meant he wouldn’t make such a remark in the future, Jones said: “I certainly wouldn’t say it in front of officials, that’s for sure.”
Both the Bar Association and the Law Society wrote to the Attorney-General about Jones’ comments, with the Law Society arguing he had “breached” principles of comity and mutual respect and called for the Government to “make a clear, public statement” reminding ministers of their obligations.
Jamie Ensor is a political reporter in the NZ Herald Press Gallery team based at Parliament. He was previously a TV reporter and digital producer in the Newshub Press Gallery office.
