Jacinda Ardern on pushing Chile to ratify CPTPP and continuing film subsidy regime

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern at a meeting of Hollywood film executives in New York City. Photo / Thomas Coughlan

After a hectic week at the United Nations General Assembly in New York, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern sat down with the Herald to discuss the future of New Zealand's film subsidy regime. Earlier that day, Ardern met executives from Hollywood studios and streaming giants.

She also discussed efforts to get Chilean President Gabriel Boric to ratify the CPTPP trade agreement. Boric's party put the agreement on ice on taking power. Ardern's Labour Party had also campaigned against the CPTPP's predecessor, but signed-up to the renamed and slightly altered CPTPP upon taking office. The interview has been lightly edited for clarity.

NZ Herald
I wanted to start out with some of the stuff that we don't get to see - the less public stuff, all of the interactions behind closed doors with some of the leaders. What's the relationship-building like?

Jacinda Ardern
So after five years, you do get to know people and so as you can imagine, with anything, not seeing one another face to face, there was... you can see a really palpable enthusiasm from leaders that everyone was coming back together again. And I think probably connected to that is a sense that despite its ongoing presence, the hardest bits of the pandemic, people are really optimistic that we might be through.

So on the one hand, you had that and you could probably see all of the reunions happening all over the place. And it means that you can transact a bit of business without the same levels of fidelity that you perhaps had when you first come in. So that's, that's really beneficial. On the flip side, some of the subject matter. Here we have, compared to 2019, the compounding issue, ongoing climate-related issues, a new war in Europe, and the threat of nuclear with so very different emotions from everyone.

NZ Herald
When you look at your five years here now. That's a pretty long tenure for this place, yet in that time, the world is undoubtedly a worse place than when you first came.

Jacinda Ardern
That's true. Yeah, in my mind, that's undeniable. I mean, now we've seen that alongside the issues of climate change, we now know and have seen that what many have been talking about for some time, infectious diseases, which are likely to be exacerbated by climate change.

That's very real and the impact it can have is enormous and we've seen it and on top of that, the instability we've had - we've had global conflict of course - but now the added instability in Europe. So it is, it is a harder time, but it is at the same time, a massive change in the last five years, is the degree to which climate is a genuine focus. Genuine. It was not universally mentioned when I first started coming here, and now it just needs to translate into action.

NZ Herald
Did you impress upon the Chilean President a desire for New Zealand to see Chile ratify the CPTPP.

Jacinda Ardern
Yes.

NZ Herald
And what was the response to that?

Ardern with Chilean President Gabriel Boric. Photo / Thomas Coughlan

Jacinda Ardern

Look, it's for Chile to talk about their own position in the CPTPP. I just shared our own experience. There were things in the CPTPP that were difficult for us around ISDS [Investor-State Dispute Settlement] clauses, around the protection of Pharmac, around indigenous issues. I just shared our experience with the agreement.

NZ Herald
What are some of the things that leaders asked of us?

Jacinda Ardern]
Well, the Secretary-General was very clear that he didn't have asks of us particularly, partly because we work so hard to make sure that we're being responsive and doing our bit as a member of the international community. The way I would characterise the ask is: keep going. You know, some really gnarly issues, but everyone has relatively limited bandwidth on. So the work we're doing on the Christchurch Call is really valued. It's really valued. A lot say to me, please keep going with that work, because they can see that the model we're using to work collaboratively is making a difference.

NZ Herald
A lot of firepower behind it now. Got some good names behind it.

Jacinda Ardern
It's got some momentum. We know that next challenges, I think, you know, in the early days, it [was] 'get the crisis response right,' because that was so dire. But now it's really getting into the elements of the call that are harder, but will make a real difference.

NZ Herald
You must be happy with sort of like a positive mission creep -

Jacinda Ardern
It's more a byproduct. I understand what you're saying but I would call it a byproduct. We [are] sticking to the issue of violent extremist terrorist content online, but in doing so, the byproduct of that will be positive for lots of other different areas.

NZ Herald
And are you thinking about being back next year? Obviously it's an election year.

Jacinda Ardern
I actually haven't given [thought to that], to be honest. No no, I can't answer that for you right now.

NZ Herald
Probably traveling less next year...?

Jacinda Ardern
That's always the tradition. Yeah. It's been a busy, busy year this year.

Ardern with the First Lady of Ukraine, Olena Zelenska, at the United Nations. Photo / Supplied

NZ Herald
How's the screen industry feeling?

Jacinda Ardern
I was really encouraged by that meeting. I think what stood out to me is as we went through the table, the list of productions that everyone had in New Zealand.

They will be productions that will be well known to people, they won't always know that they have been in New Zealand, which is a massive difference to what perhaps we might have had in the past. The real discussion amongst ourselves was how do we keep growing the skills? How do we get positive ongoing impact in New Zealand? We have a really skilled sector that is continually learning and benefiting from these productions.

NZ Herald
Ministers Nash and Sepuloni are reviewing the production grant regime. They must have been keen to hear about that.

Jacinda Ardern
My message was that it is a genuine consultation. There's elements of the incentive regime where we've just had to ask, 'can you think about how to just give a bit more certainty?'

NZ Herald
In relation to The Lord of the Rings perhaps?

Jacinda Ardern
In relation to the uplift, because that's 20 per cent baseline plus a 5 per cent uplift, which is based on certain criteria.

NZ Herald
They would like - both sides would like more certainty about how they would get that?

Jacinda Ardern
It's more the way it's deployed at the point at which you access it. And rather than knowing upfront whether or not you're going to be [able to].

NZ Herald
So there is no - the outcome of that review will not necessarily be to reduce the amount of funding that the Government gives these productions.

Jacinda Ardern
I'm going to let the consultation happen, but it is not a consultation to decide whether we should remove incentives, because to do that would remove the industry.

NZ Herald
But perhaps to take off [reduce the amount of the incentive]?

Jacinda Ardern
The whole idea here is how do we maximise the benefit for New Zealand whilst being competitive and attracting, continuing to attract industry? You need to hear them talk about how much is spent by these different productions. It is significant.

We do get domestic benefit from that. Some will say but there's no other industries that offers incentives. Unfortunately, this is the way this industry operates globally.

NZ Herald
On nuclear stuff. You seem to have quite strong relationship with the French President. Would you say some deepened over time?

Jacinda Ardern
We do have a strong relationship. And that's been built out of the work that we've done together on the Christchurch call to action. We both believe in it. We're both motivated to keep making a difference. And it's in part because we've both had horrific experiences in our own countries. Yes, so it is a good relationship.

NZ Herald
Are you able to discuss with him nuclear issues - France and New Zealand were at loggerheads on nuclear testing for a long time and now France has sort of come around.

Jacinda Ardern
It's not something that we carry baggage on.

NZ Herald
I more mean, given New Zealand's strong position on the nuclear prohibition. Is he, as probably possibly the closest relationship that you have amongst the nuclear states, I'm not sure if that's a fair characterisation, but that's what it looks like from the outside of the other five...

Jacinda Ardern
I mean, for me, the issue is how do we build momentum as a global community? So New Zealand's role I think is in helping to build that community. No one is suggesting that New Zealand alone will bring about nuclear disarmament, but a collective movement with momentum? We've done a lot to try and mobilise extra support around the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and starting to build support for prohibition. So you'll get some who will be very clear supporters of one but not the other. So we're trying to build the community around both. And then on the side, of course, you've got the test ban treaty, but for us, it's just an entrée to the much bigger pieces.

NZ Herald
The world feels undoubtedly worse than it was when you took office. If you win the election, you'll be better in three years time potentially, if you choose to come. What can you do to make it a bit slightly better than now?

Jacinda Ardern
One thing I would say is that, yes, it can get worse in three years, but it could also get dramatically better. You know, if we've learned anything, it's the pace at which you can see a dynamic change. And on the one hand, on climate, I have seen a rapid shift. It is possible, we just need to translate that into action. I am optimistic and I'm optimistic generally, yes, things are very tough right now.

The world has gone through these cycles before. This is not the first time. The Cold War wasn't that long ago. Our goal has to be though to not have our children and grandchildren go through such periods of uncertainty and instability, whether it's climate or the threat of nuclear weapons, it's our job, to de-escalate, to use our dialogue and diplomacy and bring that sense of certainty and stability. I believe we can do it.

NZ Herald
Is there one thing, one little turning point do you think you can push New Zealand over, or push people over to tangibly improve the vibe of UNGA [the United Nations General Assembly]?

Jacinda Ardern
I don't underestimate things like Biden's statement on the veto. That's significant. I mean, that's a shift. It wasn't that long ago that the United States was using the veto relatively frequently. We are only a few countries away from the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty on nuclear weapons being enforceable. So don't underestimate those moves, those changes. That's significant.