Election 2023: TVNZ’s Kaupapa Māori debate - wealth tax, co-governance and ‘indigenous’

Labour's Willie Jackson and Act's Karen Chhour during TVNZ's Kaupapa Māori debate. Photo / Supplied

A wealth tax “deal” with Labour, Shane Jones on what Winston Peters really meant about “indigenous”, and a much-expected fiery discussion about co-governance dominated a debate among Māori representatives of the main political parties.

TVNZ’s Kaupapa Māori debate tonight had Te Pāti Māori president John Tamihere claim Labour will have to “do a deal” with them to implement a wealth tax if it wants their support after the election.

It came after Act Party MP Karen Chhour accused Labour of telling “a porky” over not campaigning for a wealth tax, saying it would seek to do a deal.

“That is exactly what they are going to do, they are going to do a deal with Te Pāti Māori,” Tamihere said.

Having a tax policy where “2 per cent controls 50 per cent of the wealth is a disgrace”, he said.

The comments come as it was revealed today that Labour MP and Wellington Central candidate Ibrahim Omer told a candidates’ debate that Labour “had not given up” on the idea of a wealth tax, despite leader Chris Hipkins ruling it out.

Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson, who has previously also stated such a policy would be a priority to work with Labour, voiced her support, saying there was “no need for whānau to struggle”.

There was plenty of energy and emotion throughout the debate, hosted by 1News deputy political editor Maiki Sherman, with National MP Tama Potaka getting a few jabs in interjecting with “stop wasting money” to both Davidson and Labour’s Willie Jackson.

He also labelled Davidson’s comments on a wealth tax “politics of envy”, which received a strong response from the Green MP responding “that’s disgusting”.

Labour’s Jackson then joined in, calling out Potaka, a former iwi leader and Treaty negotiator: “Those pākehās really got to you aye”, referencing his colleagues in the National Party.

Kaupapa spanned a range of topical issues, from housing and cost of living to crime and iwi relations.

But the most fiery of the evening was during discussions about Māori rights and co-governance.

NZ First candidate Shane Jones sought to explain his leader Winston Peters’ comments that Māori were not indigenous, as they had originally travelled from Hawaiki to Aotearoa.

He said what Peters was really getting at was that Māori were issues weighted under “labels and brands”.

He said indigenous had become a “hip term” and even disputed the use of mana whenua.

Davidson hit out at Act, saying she supported her comments about devolving resources to Māori by questioning why she allowed party leader David Seymour to “spout fear”.

Chhour said there was concern in communities about co-governance as people did not know what it meant. She said proponents of it did not speak for all Māori.

Jackson said he was proud of what Labour had done.

It hadn’t worked as well because of the “disgraceful strategy” of Act and National, he said.

Tamihere, meanwhile, said co-governance regarding freshwater management was only a “halfway house”, referencing his party’s policies.

“It is our asset, how the hell did the pākehās get in the room for co-government?

“In the end it is about the rule of law... We own it.”

There was also some heated discussion about the Labour Government’s law to tackle ram raiders, creating a specific crime for the offence and allowing 12 and 13 year olds to be charged by police and heard in the youth court.

“It was one of the toughest things we have ever done,” said Jackson.

“Kiritapu Allan, the minister who brought it in, it just about broke her. The last thing we want to do is throw our kids in jail.”

He said a policy was needed to get them into the system so they could support them.

Tamihere hit back, saying Labour got “spooked by the polls, spooked by the incessant demonisation of our people, the politics of the right”.

He said locking them up was not the answer. There were thousands of young Māori not in education or training but the Government did not want to do anything for “these kids that have got nowhere else to go”.

Jones saved some of his best zingers for the topic.

“I understand co-governance and it saddens me deeply the place they decided to embed co-governance was the pipes to deal with pee and poo. There’s something deeply ironic about that. Our party will not support co-governance.”

Then on Act’s referendum: ”No. We have not supported David Seymour and his newly discovered DNA on anything.”

Jackson interjected that Jones should “hang his head in shame”, saying he was simply pandering for votes.

“Winston is going to send you back to Hawaiki,” responded Jones.