The leaders of the “powerbroker” parties jumped straight into it, discussing “race-baiting”, “woke projects” and “ethno states” in a fiery start to the minor parties’ debate.
The Act Party’s David Seymour, Green Party’s Marama Davidson, Te Pāti Māori’s Debbie Ngarewa-Packer and NZ First’s Winston Peters faced off in an Auckland pub tonight for the Newshub Nation debate, broadcast live across the nation.
From the start, the debate satisfied expectations it would be much more heated than Tuesday’s leaders’ debate between Chris Hipkins and Christopher Luxon.
None of the panel - who are all whakapapa Māori - were holding back and tensions were high between some of the opposing politicians. But the audience was clearly being kept entertained, with plenty of laughs and even the odd jeer.
Seymour started off the debate answering questions about Act’s plans to abolish ministries such as those for women and Pacific peoples. Seymour said part of it was to reduce government spending overall, but he also said his party disagreed with those ministries targeting specific groups of people.
Davidson said Seymour’s plan would be stripping away those who work to address inequities.
“I too would love an Aotearoa that truly treats everyone the same - we haven’t,” Davidson said while taking a shot at the “wealthy few and David’s mates” in response to Seymour.
Ngarewa-Packer said it needed to be looked at through a Te Tiriti lens. She said it was actually about race, as there were other departments where more could be cut. She also said there needed to be more focus on intergenerational inequities.
“You’ve had your turn,” Ngarewa-Packer said to Seymour, waving him away as he tried to interject her answer about prioritising the Treaty.
Peters said there was too much focus on things such as language rather than actually fixing things. He then defended his comments, spoken at a public meeting in Nelson this month, about Māori not being indigenous, saying he was Māori and he knew where he came from.
“The average Māori could not give a rat’s derriere about the name, they want the roads fixed,” Peters said in reference to his opposition to Māori names of government ministries.
Asked if Seymour was race-baiting with comments such as “ethno states”, Seymour said he disagreed and that it was true when Māori ended up being appointed to co-governance boards. Davidson retorted, “like wealthy lobbyists”.
“Really, you are [race]-baiting and you always have and you know it,” Davidson shot at Seymour.
Peters said there was too much focus on “woke projects” and not fundamental issues.
“What a deceitful way to take the eyes off the prize that ordinary Māori want,” Peters said, citing that average Māori wanted a good education and good healthcare.
“You can’t have nice things until you’ve got a good economy,” Seymour said of Peters’ support for bringing the next Commonwealth Games to New Zealand.
Asked if it was time to ditch the monarchy, Seymour said no, Davidson said it needed to “uphold Te Tiriti”, Ngarewa-Packer said to get rid of it and have a Tiriti-centric constitution, while Peters said it was not for them to decide and rather “the people”.
On Labour’s cost of living policies, Peters said: “They’re not dealing with the real problem.”
On proposed tax changes, he added that the party had all been found out by the Pre-Election Economic and Fiscal Update and didn’t have enough money to pay for them. He also called for more powers to be given to the Grocery Commission to bring down prices at the supermarket.
On government spending and whether it needed to be reined in, Davidson said the focus needed to be on people and the planet over everything else.
On a long list of taxes proposed by Te Pāti Māori, Ngarewa-Packer said there was enormous poverty in New Zealand and that needed to be focused on. It was a political choice not to address it, she said.
Asked about voting history, Ngarewa-Packer said it was a “different party” when the Māori Party voted for National’s previous GST hike from 12.5 per cent to 15 per cent.
Debate host Rebecca Wright then asserted the Greens’ and the Māori Party’s tax policies wouldn’t be adopted by the Labour Party.
“That’s not up to you, it’s up to the voters to decide,” Davidson replied.
Davidson and Ngarewa-Packer both spoke in favour of a wealth tax, saying it was not Labour’s to rule out - ending with a high-five between the pair.
It was their second high-five of the evening at that stage, after previously both speaking out against Seymour’s defence of not race-baiting.
Then there was a quick-witted round of interjections between the four.
“We have a bare cupboard,” Seymour said in talking about the Government’s excessive spending.
“We know how to fill that cupboard,” Davidson piped up.
“Rebecca, start doing your job,” Peters said, before saying to Seymour: “That’s enough, there are adults in the room.”
”You’re not on the marae now, behave yourself,” Peters said to Davidson and Ngarewa-Packer.
Davidson replied: “We would expect a lot more maturity than what you’re showing,” noting Peters had been in politics 40 years.
”I’m not a cis, white man,” Peters said to Davidson, alluding to the Greens co-leader’s historical comments against cis white men which she later admitted was not said in the best way.
In another quickfire round on raising the super age, only Seymour said it should be raised. Peters said there was plenty of money to keep it at 65.
On a strategy to address gangs, Davidson said the roots of the problems needed to be addressed, connections restored and more support given.
Peters said gangs needed to be outlawed and their members put into 40-hour jobs and on the straight and narrow. He said there should be gang-only prisons.
“The biggest victim of crime in the country is Māori and Pasifika,” Peters said.
Seymour said he agreed with Davidson that the welfare programme had failed. Davidson said: “That’s not what I said, bloody hell.”
Seymour said he felt the cost of keeping dangerous people in prison was worth it.
Ngarewa-Packer said the approach of being tough on crime and soft on poverty was not going to work. Poverty was the reason why there were these issues.
“We can’t prison our way out of justice,” Ngarewa-Packer said.
Peters said rather than spending money keeping people in prison they should be made to work “six days a week”.
Peters was being interrogated on his view that white-collar criminals shouldn’t be in jail because it cost too much. Davidson and Ngarewa-Packer both criticised that view while Wright challenged Peters on why victims of white-collar crime shouldn’t see the perpetrators in prison.
Ngarewa-Packer said a bottom line in any coalition negotiations would be a wealth tax. She said they would also seek to keep their intergenerational focus. Labour’s Chris Hipkins has ruled out a wealth tax under his leadership.
Seymour said he was open to only entering a confidence arrangement with National, not necessarily including supply, if Act didn’t get what it sought.
“I’m getting lost David, I’m getting lost,” Wright said as Seymour attempted to explain how National and Act would work out their differences.
He deferred when asked if he could work with NZ First, with Wright calling time when he would not answer.
When asked about his absolute bottom line for a coalition, Seymour
gave a rambling response Seymour and was unable to give a single one bottom line before he was cut off again for running too long.
“You keep going round in circles,” Ngarewa-Packer said to Seymour.
Peters called out a “lack of inexperience” in Seymour’s comments, saying that the Act leader going into a coalition would “paralyse the government”.
“You’ve got to get adults in the room and leave the trousers on,” Peters said of the need to work together while in government as he also took a shot at Act and the Greens for not having ministers in Cabinet.
Davidson said there was no way Luxon would be able to control Seymour and Peters in government.
“Do people actually trust that Luxon is going to be able to manage these two, like for real?” Davidson asked while pointing at Seymour and Peters.
Seymour said ultimately he could make it work with Peters.
“Of course he will,” Peters said when Seymour was asked if he could work with Peters.
“I’m beginning to pity Christopher Luxon,” Wright said as she wrapped up the debate.
Minor parties look set to play a larger role in this election than previously.
No polls have Labour or National able to govern alone, with the latest polls showing a National and Act combination the most likely, but with potential for NZ First in the wings.
If Labour were to turn around its fortunes it would most likely need the support of the Greens and Te Pāti Māori. Last night’s 1News Verian poll has Act and the Greens on 15 seats each, NZ First on six seats and Te Pāti Māori on four.
The debate, which started at 7.30pm, comes as NZ First looks increasingly likely to make a comeback.
The 1News Verian poll had the party, knocked out of Parliament in 2020, at 5 per cent - right on the threshold.
Luxon has left the door open to working with NZ First and leader Peters if necessary, repeatedly refusing to rule out the option.
Luxon said it was his preference for a National-Act coalition and any other decisions would have to wait until after the election.
Seymour today said he preferred not to work with Peters, but he would find a way to make it work.
Act today also unveiled its alternative budget.
Seymour said the tax cuts promised in the budget were “dramatically” smaller than what it had promised in the past, but that these tax cuts needed to be scaled back to respond to the current fiscal conditions. These would be funded by cuts of $2.9 billion this year and next and rising to $4.4b in 2025 and $5.7b in 2026.
The party would also privatise Landcorp land - about 300,000 hectares - and raise the NZ Superannuation age to 67 over the next eight years.
Seymour said he would be speaking to potential voters during the debate, and Peters was “probably” not a potential voter.
Then again, Peters “might” vote Act, Seymour joked.
Peters joins Kate Sheppard and Nelson Mandela on a growing list of potential Act voters, according to Seymour’s comments during the campaign.
Treasury staffer also floated lock-up interview ban.