NZ Herald Live: PM Christopher Luxon and MP Chris Penk speak to the media
The Prime Minister’s openness to discussing whether it’s time to ban language and symbols related to the Nazi movement is being welcomed.
The Holocaust Centre believes it’s a complex discussion to have given free speech rights, but now is the time to have it.
“I think New Zealand is going to have to consider whether it too bans Nazi symbols and Nazi speech as a protection not just for the Jewish community, but for us all,” said chairwoman Deborah Hart.
Act leader – and Government minister - David Seymour has, however, expressed some opposition, saying such a ban would stop people from identifying “idiots” in society and run into Bill of Rights issues. He denied that the argument undermined the Government’s gang patch ban, which was criticised on similar grounds.
Asked afterwards whether the Government could consider banning such language and related symbols, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said: “We are up for those conversations”.
However, he said the Government has to this point been focused on dealing with the gangs and serious young offenders. The most prominent policy of the Government’s law and order agenda has been to ban gang insignia in public places.
“We are doing everything we can to make sure we give police all the tools and powers they need to make sure we bring violent crime, retail crime, ram-raids and gang membership under control.”
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says the Government is up for the conversation. Photo / Mark Mitchell.
Har welcomed the Prime Minister’s stance on what was a “complex” issue, but also said it was “the right discussion to be having right now”.
“We’re always concerned about the use of Nazi memorabilia and symbols and tropes in our society,” she told the Herald.
“There’s a balancing act to be done here regarding the right to free speech, but there are limits on free speech.”
Hart said that while she “treasures free speech”, she believed there was a case for this limitation. She said members of the Jewish community were dealing with more anti-Semitic incidents over the past year, which follows the October 7 attack on Israel.
“We have reached a tipping point,” she said. “The sharp rise in anti-Semitism in the last year has been startling and horrific, and we need to as a society do all we can to halt this progression, because it’s getting worse, not better.”
The “sieg heil” chant was of particular concern as it was a “very clear call to violence”.
“To see that being used openly in New Zealand on our streets is chilling,” Hart said.
She noted that other jurisdictions have banned language and gestures associated with Nazis. Australia, for example, earlier this year made it unlawful to perform the Nazi salute in public or publicly display or trade Nazi hate symbols.
But there were other actions the Government should take, Hart said, like increasing education about the Holocaust and how to combat anti-Semitism, as well as becoming a full member of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, rather than just an observer state.
Seymour, however, said his view was that while “I hate those symbols and salutes”, they allowed people to identify who the “idiots in society are”.
“I think it [banning the symbols or language] would probably not get us very far and I think you’d probably run into all sorts of Bill of Rights issues and I think you’ll also find that you’re in a position where, you know, what do you achieve? You’re talking about a tiny minority of incredibly stupid people. If they are prepared to self-identify, let’s let them.”
He pushed back on suggestions his arguments could also be used against the Government’s gang patch ban. Some critics of that said the patches allowed individuals to identify gang members and it was also declared inconsistent with the Bill of Rights by the Attorney-General.
Act leader David Seymour has raised counter-arguments. Photo / Alyse Wright
Seymour said the argument for banning gang patches related to addressing the intimidation caused by them.
“Anyone with any vague knowledge of history is just a complete idiot, who makes one of those symbols. I think there’s a difference there. Whereas people are genuinely intimidated by seeing certain gang patches.”
He said he did have “pause for thought” when the Attorney-General declared the gang patch ban as being inconsistent with the Bill of Rights.
It was reported in 2019 that the Mongrel Mob Kingdom chapter would no longer use the “sieg heil” term.
The tangi on Tuesday was for long-time Mongrel Mob member Anaru Moke, also known as Fats.
Luxon praised the way police had handled recent similar gang funeral processions.
“My message to gang members is, you can’t just take the rights of being a Kiwi and the freedoms of being a Kiwi.
“You have to have the responsibilities and the duties of being a Kiwi, to each other in this country as well as to the country as a whole.”
Jamie Ensor is a political reporter in the NZ Herald Press Gallery team based at Parliament. He was previously a TV reporter and digital producer in the Newshub Press Gallery office.
