And I used to hang out with Don Clark.
The Boot? Now you're lost in a fantasy novel. You should stick to poetry.
I mean the one without an "e"
Clark without an "e"?
Yes, the Otago flanker who turned out for the All Blacks a few times. He was one of the country players in the Otago squad – they stayed in the Dunedin hotel my parents ran. Don and his brother Colin were very patient with a hero-worshipping 14-year-old.
What were your own sports then?
Well I was pretty good at snooker when I was at high school. I used to spend a lot of time at Harry Kwok's billiard parlour in the old Exchange building. But I think Greg McGee got it right in Foreskin's Lament. Fullback is the best position for artists and writers. You're in the game but also slightly out of it, keeping an eye on things.
So you'd agree that the All Blacks are the real icons, then.
Sure. And so are Buzzy Bee and Phar Lap and the Edmonds cook book. Likewise all those ancient saints in their golden frames hanging on the walls of Russian monasteries.
How about this then? "While our literary heroes may never challenge the glory and respect given to our All Blacks, we still need role models to inspire us." You know who said that?
John Key. A bit unfortunate really, successfully undermining the very people he thinks he's praising.
First-rate prime ministerial point, I'd say. I suppose, you know who Ron Scott is?
You mean Sir Ron Scott who set up the Commonwealth Games in Christchurch?
Yes. Well he was also one of the prime movers in setting up the Icon Awards. Ron always thought that a grown-up society needed arts and sport in equal measure. He used to like asking people what they thought was the major national sport back when Mozart flourished, and who was top of the league table at the time. And in fact sports people and artists have quite a lot in common. Total commitment. An instinct for patterns. The ability to think "What if?" And then there's our new Minister for Sport – he's also Associate Arts Minister.
Who decides about these Icon things?
I'm not sure. I think the decision's made by your peers. I know it's not something you apply for – they just ring you up. Actually I think this solitary genius notion can be a bit overworked. It's never felt true to my experience. Writers like Hone Tuwhare and Janet Frame were hugely encouraging presences when I was starting out. I'm happy to be part of a team that has also included them. Artists are pretty supportive of one another.
But you wouldn't have earned much from poetry over the years . . .
No, I've earned my living as a teacher, which strikes me as an honourable way to get by in the world.
I'll grant you that one.
As for poetry, you're right – a poem's not worth sixpence on the street. But go to a funeral, a wedding, a naming ceremony – any of the big human rites of passage – and you find that poems are totally present, and are worth just about everything.
