NZ Herald
  • Home
  • Latest news
  • Video
  • New Zealand
  • Sport
  • World
  • Business
  • Entertainment
  • Podcasts
  • Quizzes
  • Opinion
  • Lifestyle
  • Travel
  • Viva
  • Weather forecasts

Subscriptions

  • Herald Premium
  • Viva Premium
  • The Listener
  • BusinessDesk

Sections

  • Latest news
  • New Zealand
    • All New Zealand
    • Crime
    • Politics
    • Education
    • Open Justice
    • Scam Update
    • The Great NZ Road Trip
  • On The Up
  • World
    • All World
    • Australia
    • Asia
    • UK
    • United States
    • Middle East
    • Europe
    • Pacific
  • Business
    • All Business
    • MarketsSharesCurrencyCommoditiesStock TakesCrypto
    • Markets with Madison
    • Media Insider
    • Business analysis
    • Personal financeKiwiSaverInterest ratesTaxInvestment
    • EconomyInflationGDPOfficial cash rateEmployment
    • Small business
    • Business reportsMood of the BoardroomProject AucklandSustainable business and financeCapital markets reportAgribusiness reportInfrastructure reportDynamic business
    • Deloitte Top 200 Awards
    • CompaniesAged CareAgribusinessAirlinesBanking and financeConstructionEnergyFreight and logisticsHealthcareManufacturingMedia and MarketingRetailTelecommunicationsTourism
  • Opinion
    • All Opinion
    • Analysis
    • Editorials
    • Business analysis
    • Premium opinion
    • Letters to the editor
  • Sport
    • All Sport
    • OlympicsParalympics
    • RugbySuper RugbyNPCAll BlacksBlack FernsRugby sevensSchool rugby
    • CricketBlack CapsWhite Ferns
    • Racing
    • NetballSilver Ferns
    • LeagueWarriorsNRL
    • FootballWellington PhoenixAuckland FCAll WhitesFootball FernsEnglish Premier League
    • GolfNZ Open
    • MotorsportFormula 1
    • Boxing
    • UFC
    • BasketballNBABreakersTall BlacksTall Ferns
    • Tennis
    • Cycling
    • Athletics
    • SailingAmerica's CupSailGP
    • Rowing
  • Lifestyle
    • All Lifestyle
    • Viva - Food, fashion & beauty
    • Society Insider
    • Royals
    • Sex & relationships
    • Food & drinkRecipesRecipe collectionsRestaurant reviewsRestaurant bookings
    • Health & wellbeing
    • Fashion & beauty
    • Pets & animals
    • The Selection - Shop the trendsShop fashionShop beautyShop entertainmentShop giftsShop home & living
    • Milford's Investing Place
  • Entertainment
    • All Entertainment
    • TV
    • MoviesMovie reviews
    • MusicMusic reviews
    • BooksBook reviews
    • Culture
    • ReviewsBook reviewsMovie reviewsMusic reviewsRestaurant reviews
  • Travel
    • All Travel
    • News
    • New ZealandNorthlandAucklandWellingtonCanterburyOtago / QueenstownNelson-TasmanBest NZ beaches
    • International travelAustraliaPacific IslandsEuropeUKUSAAfricaAsia
    • Rail holidays
    • Cruise holidays
    • Ski holidays
    • Luxury travel
    • Adventure travel
  • Kāhu Māori news
  • Environment
    • All Environment
    • Our Green Future
  • Talanoa Pacific news
  • Property
    • All Property
    • Property Insider
    • Interest rates tracker
    • Residential property listings
    • Commercial property listings
  • Health
  • Technology
    • All Technology
    • AI
    • Social media
  • Rural
    • All Rural
    • Dairy farming
    • Sheep & beef farming
    • Horticulture
    • Animal health
    • Rural business
    • Rural life
    • Rural technology
    • Opinion
    • Audio & podcasts
  • Weather forecasts
    • All Weather forecasts
    • Kaitaia
    • Whangārei
    • Dargaville
    • Auckland
    • Thames
    • Tauranga
    • Hamilton
    • Whakatāne
    • Rotorua
    • Tokoroa
    • Te Kuiti
    • Taumaranui
    • Taupō
    • Gisborne
    • New Plymouth
    • Napier
    • Hastings
    • Dannevirke
    • Whanganui
    • Palmerston North
    • Levin
    • Paraparaumu
    • Masterton
    • Wellington
    • Motueka
    • Nelson
    • Blenheim
    • Westport
    • Reefton
    • Kaikōura
    • Greymouth
    • Hokitika
    • Christchurch
    • Ashburton
    • Timaru
    • Wānaka
    • Oamaru
    • Queenstown
    • Dunedin
    • Gore
    • Invercargill
  • Meet the journalists
  • Promotions & competitions
  • OneRoof property listings
  • Driven car news

Puzzles & Quizzes

  • Puzzles
    • All Puzzles
    • Sudoku
    • Code Cracker
    • Crosswords
    • Cryptic crossword
    • Wordsearch
  • Quizzes
    • All Quizzes
    • Morning quiz
    • Afternoon quiz
    • Sports quiz

Regions

  • Northland
    • All Northland
    • Far North
    • Kaitaia
    • Kerikeri
    • Kaikohe
    • Bay of Islands
    • Whangarei
    • Dargaville
    • Kaipara
    • Mangawhai
  • Auckland
  • Waikato
    • All Waikato
    • Hamilton
    • Coromandel & Hauraki
    • Matamata & Piako
    • Cambridge
    • Te Awamutu
    • Tokoroa & South Waikato
    • Taupō & Tūrangi
  • Bay of Plenty
    • All Bay of Plenty
    • Katikati
    • Tauranga
    • Mount Maunganui
    • Pāpāmoa
    • Te Puke
    • Whakatāne
  • Rotorua
  • Hawke's Bay
    • All Hawke's Bay
    • Napier
    • Hastings
    • Havelock North
    • Central Hawke's Bay
    • Wairoa
  • Taranaki
    • All Taranaki
    • Stratford
    • New Plymouth
    • Hāwera
  • Manawatū - Whanganui
    • All Manawatū - Whanganui
    • Whanganui
    • Palmerston North
    • Manawatū
    • Tararua
    • Horowhenua
  • Wellington
    • All Wellington
    • Kapiti
    • Wairarapa
    • Upper Hutt
    • Lower Hutt
  • Nelson & Tasman
    • All Nelson & Tasman
    • Motueka
    • Nelson
    • Tasman
  • Marlborough
  • West Coast
  • Canterbury
    • All Canterbury
    • Kaikōura
    • Christchurch
    • Ashburton
    • Timaru
  • Otago
    • All Otago
    • Oamaru
    • Dunedin
    • Balclutha
    • Alexandra
    • Queenstown
    • Wanaka
  • Southland
    • All Southland
    • Invercargill
    • Gore
    • Stewart Island
  • Gisborne

Media

  • Video
    • All Video
    • NZ news video
    • Business news video
    • Politics news video
    • Sport video
    • World news video
    • Lifestyle video
    • Entertainment video
    • Travel video
    • Markets with Madison
    • Kea Kids news
  • Podcasts
    • All Podcasts
    • The Front Page
    • On the Tiles
    • Ask me Anything
    • The Little Things
    • Cooking the Books
  • Cartoons
  • Photo galleries
  • Today's Paper - E-editions
  • Photo sales
  • Classifieds

NZME Network

  • Advertise with NZME
  • OneRoof
  • Driven Car Guide
  • BusinessDesk
  • Newstalk ZB
  • What the Actual
  • Sunlive
  • ZM
  • The Hits
  • Coast
  • Radio Hauraki
  • The Alternative Commentary Collective
  • Gold
  • Flava
  • iHeart Radio
  • Hokonui
  • Radio Wanaka
  • iHeartCountry New Zealand
  • Restaurant Hub
  • NZME Events

SubscribeSign In
Advertisement
Advertise with NZME.
Home / New Zealand

<i>Rudman's city:</i> He'd rather the council didn't have a prayer...

Brian Rudman
By Brian Rudman
Columnist·
20 Nov, 2001 05:43 AM4 mins to read

Subscribe to listen

Access to Herald Premium articles require a Premium subscription. Subscribe now to listen.
Already a subscriber?  Sign in here

Listening to articles is free for open-access content—explore other articles or learn more about text-to-speech.
‌
Save

    Share this article

By BRIAN RUDMAN

There's nothing like a bit of cage-rattling by the new boy to stir things up. And tenderfoot North Shore City councillor Andrew Williams has certainly done that with his vigorous objection to the Christian prayer intoned by the mayor before council meetings.

Threatening to trot off to the Human Rights Commission if the prayer is not abandoned, he says that "in this country it's illegal to impose your religious beliefs on others". Councillors who want to pray should do so beforehand in the councillors' lounge.

In an e-mail to all councillors he declared the prayer "offensive and objectionable". People "of any religious persuasion ... are now a very small part of New Zealand society and there simply is no justification in mixing religion with politics or local government".

Mayor George Wood, proclaiming himself "a stickler for tradition and protocol", is defending the prayer - which in its present form dates back all of about eight years - and says Mr Williams hasn't the numbers to win.

But is that really the point?

In this multicultural, post-Christian, secular society is a public prayer of any sort an appropriate way to begin a city council meeting? Particularly the one used by North Shore which reeks of old-fashioned Anglican class system, with God at the top and the rest of us in our proper places.

"O Lord God who has made all things, and who calls people to use their talents in different ways," it begins, "we acknowledge your call on us to manage the affairs of this City of North Shore. We recognise that you have promised to supply whatever is needed to fulfil a calling from you. Give us your Spirit so that we may make decisions with wisdom and maturity ... "

Now as a non-believer I'd be highly irritated if I had to sit through that little incantation before every meeting. As a democrat, I'm of the opinion that it was the people of North Shore who called the council to manage the affairs of their city, not some imported deity.

Councillor Gary Holmes, a firm defender of the prayer, says that Mr Williams is doing what he is accusing others of doing - trying to impose his beliefs on fellow councillors. Mr Holmes suggests that Mr Williams should do what other non-praying councillors have done in the past. They stand back from their chairs until the prayer is over, or make a diplomatically late entry.

But that is hardly fair on them. Every citizen is entitled, if he or she wishes, to preserve his or her religious beliefs or non-beliefs as something private. Part of this freedom of religious expression surely involves keeping one's beliefs to oneself. And you don't do that by having to publicly dissent by withdrawing temporarily every time the council prays.

North Shore is not alone in seeking divine assistance. Manukau City has adapted the parliamentary prayer, asking God to assist in councillors' deliberations. Out west in Waitakere City they adopt an ecumenical approach, inviting religious leaders of different faiths and factions to take turns invoking outside help.

However, in Auckland City feet remain firmly on the ground. The last time a prayer was contemplated as part of council business was in February 1991 when new mayor Les Mills lost his battle to introduce a non-denominational prayer by a narrow 11 votes to 12.

Dame Barbara Goodman, a Jew, argued against it, saying the debating chamber was a neutral place. In the past Jews and other people had had to endure other religions being forced upon them. She said that she did not want to be forced into not taking part. "It is something which will discriminate against me."

Also against it was councillor Bruce Hucker, a Presbyterian minister. He said the council was a political institution, not a church. "You are trying to cover politics with a veneer of piety."

Mr Mills had to make do with invitation-only mayoral prayer breakfasts.

Dr Hucker recalls arguing strongly that if people wanted to pray, they could hold a prayer meeting elsewhere before the meeting as individual councillors.

"The position I've been arguing is also consistent with removing it from Parliament. No person who is elected to public office should be forced by any procedure to violate their personal conscience.

"And because it's not an act of personal prayer but a collective act of public worship if you like, it can exclude councillors who don't share the underlying beliefs associated with it."

He added that in this secular culture, "the prayer can, in fact, be an expression of self-righteousness to cover up an essentially secular proceeding, including getting stuck in to each other".

Mr Williams says he will happily live with a non-religious pre-meeting commitment along the lines of the councillors' swearing-in pledge to perform their duties to the best of their abilities.

Now that does sound like a very sensible 21st-century solution.

Advertisement
Advertise with NZME.
Advertisement
Advertise with NZME.
Save

    Share this article

Latest from New Zealand

New Zealand

Watch: Major highway blocked by slip, Auckland flights delayed as intense storm strikes

09 May 08:09 AM
Crime

Man's 11-day crime spree targets police by spitting and threatening to kill staff

09 May 08:00 AM
New Zealand

Auckland War Memorial Museum closed to public after asbestos discovery

09 May 07:49 AM

One tiny baby’s fight to survive

sponsored
Advertisement
Advertise with NZME.

Latest from New Zealand

Watch: Major highway blocked by slip, Auckland flights delayed as intense storm strikes

Watch: Major highway blocked by slip, Auckland flights delayed as intense storm strikes

09 May 08:09 AM

Motorists are being warned to expect hazardous driving conditions.

Man's 11-day crime spree targets police by spitting and threatening to kill staff

Man's 11-day crime spree targets police by spitting and threatening to kill staff

09 May 08:00 AM
Auckland War Memorial Museum closed to public after asbestos discovery

Auckland War Memorial Museum closed to public after asbestos discovery

09 May 07:49 AM
'We've had enough': Red Square protest opposes pay equity changes

'We've had enough': Red Square protest opposes pay equity changes

09 May 07:21 AM
Connected workers are safer workers 
sponsored

Connected workers are safer workers 

NZ Herald
  • About NZ Herald
  • Meet the journalists
  • Newsletters
  • Classifieds
  • Help & support
  • Contact us
  • House rules
  • Privacy Policy
  • Terms of use
  • Competition terms & conditions
  • Our use of AI
Subscriber Services
  • NZ Herald e-editions
  • Daily puzzles & quizzes
  • Manage your digital subscription
  • Manage your print subscription
  • Subscribe to the NZ Herald newspaper
  • Subscribe to Herald Premium
  • Gift a subscription
  • Subscriber FAQs
  • Subscription terms & conditions
  • Promotions and subscriber benefits
NZME Network
  • The New Zealand Herald
  • The Northland Age
  • The Northern Advocate
  • Waikato Herald
  • Bay of Plenty Times
  • Rotorua Daily Post
  • Hawke's Bay Today
  • Whanganui Chronicle
  • Viva
  • NZ Listener
  • What the Actual
  • Newstalk ZB
  • BusinessDesk
  • OneRoof
  • Driven CarGuide
  • iHeart Radio
  • Restaurant Hub
NZME
  • About NZME
  • NZME careers
  • Advertise with NZME
  • Digital self-service advertising
  • Book your classified ad
  • Photo sales
  • NZME Events
  • © Copyright 2025 NZME Publishing Limited
TOP