NZ Herald
  • Home
  • Latest news
  • Herald NOW
  • Video
  • New Zealand
  • Sport
  • World
  • Business
  • Entertainment
  • Podcasts
  • Quizzes
  • Opinion
  • Lifestyle
  • Travel
  • Viva
  • Weather

Subscriptions

  • Herald Premium
  • Viva Premium
  • The Listener
  • BusinessDesk

Sections

  • Latest news
  • New Zealand
    • All New Zealand
    • Crime
    • Politics
    • Education
    • Open Justice
    • Scam Update
  • Herald NOW
  • On The Up
  • World
    • All World
    • Australia
    • Asia
    • UK
    • United States
    • Middle East
    • Europe
    • Pacific
  • Business
    • All Business
    • MarketsSharesCurrencyCommoditiesStock TakesCrypto
    • Markets with Madison
    • Media Insider
    • Business analysis
    • Personal financeKiwiSaverInterest ratesTaxInvestment
    • EconomyInflationGDPOfficial cash rateEmployment
    • Small business
    • Business reportsMood of the BoardroomProject AucklandSustainable business and financeCapital markets reportAgribusiness reportInfrastructure reportDynamic business
    • Deloitte Top 200 Awards
    • CompaniesAged CareAgribusinessAirlinesBanking and financeConstructionEnergyFreight and logisticsHealthcareManufacturingMedia and MarketingRetailTelecommunicationsTourism
  • Opinion
    • All Opinion
    • Analysis
    • Editorials
    • Business analysis
    • Premium opinion
    • Letters to the editor
  • Politics
  • Sport
    • All Sport
    • OlympicsParalympics
    • RugbySuper RugbyNPCAll BlacksBlack FernsRugby sevensSchool rugby
    • CricketBlack CapsWhite Ferns
    • Racing
    • NetballSilver Ferns
    • LeagueWarriorsNRL
    • FootballWellington PhoenixAuckland FCAll WhitesFootball FernsEnglish Premier League
    • GolfNZ Open
    • MotorsportFormula 1
    • Boxing
    • UFC
    • BasketballNBABreakersTall BlacksTall Ferns
    • Tennis
    • Cycling
    • Athletics
    • SailingAmerica's CupSailGP
    • Rowing
  • Lifestyle
    • All Lifestyle
    • Viva - Food, fashion & beauty
    • Society Insider
    • Royals
    • Sex & relationships
    • Food & drinkRecipesRecipe collectionsRestaurant reviewsRestaurant bookings
    • Health & wellbeing
    • Fashion & beauty
    • Pets & animals
    • The Selection - Shop the trendsShop fashionShop beautyShop entertainmentShop giftsShop home & living
    • Milford's Investing Place
  • Entertainment
    • All Entertainment
    • TV
    • MoviesMovie reviews
    • MusicMusic reviews
    • BooksBook reviews
    • Culture
    • ReviewsBook reviewsMovie reviewsMusic reviewsRestaurant reviews
  • Travel
    • All Travel
    • News
    • New ZealandNorthlandAucklandWellingtonCanterburyOtago / QueenstownNelson-TasmanBest NZ beaches
    • International travelAustraliaPacific IslandsEuropeUKUSAAfricaAsia
    • Rail holidays
    • Cruise holidays
    • Ski holidays
    • Luxury travel
    • Adventure travel
  • Kāhu Māori news
  • Environment
    • All Environment
    • Our Green Future
  • Talanoa Pacific news
  • Property
    • All Property
    • Property Insider
    • Interest rates tracker
    • Residential property listings
    • Commercial property listings
  • Health
  • Technology
    • All Technology
    • AI
    • Social media
  • Rural
    • All Rural
    • Dairy farming
    • Sheep & beef farming
    • Horticulture
    • Animal health
    • Rural business
    • Rural life
    • Rural technology
    • Opinion
    • Audio & podcasts
  • Weather forecasts
    • All Weather forecasts
    • Kaitaia
    • Whangārei
    • Dargaville
    • Auckland
    • Thames
    • Tauranga
    • Hamilton
    • Whakatāne
    • Rotorua
    • Tokoroa
    • Te Kuiti
    • Taumaranui
    • Taupō
    • Gisborne
    • New Plymouth
    • Napier
    • Hastings
    • Dannevirke
    • Whanganui
    • Palmerston North
    • Levin
    • Paraparaumu
    • Masterton
    • Wellington
    • Motueka
    • Nelson
    • Blenheim
    • Westport
    • Reefton
    • Kaikōura
    • Greymouth
    • Hokitika
    • Christchurch
    • Ashburton
    • Timaru
    • Wānaka
    • Oamaru
    • Queenstown
    • Dunedin
    • Gore
    • Invercargill
  • Meet the journalists
  • Promotions & competitions
  • OneRoof property listings
  • Driven car news

Puzzles & Quizzes

  • Puzzles
    • All Puzzles
    • Sudoku
    • Code Cracker
    • Crosswords
    • Cryptic crossword
    • Wordsearch
  • Quizzes
    • All Quizzes
    • Morning quiz
    • Afternoon quiz
    • Sports quiz

Regions

  • Northland
    • All Northland
    • Far North
    • Kaitaia
    • Kerikeri
    • Kaikohe
    • Bay of Islands
    • Whangarei
    • Dargaville
    • Kaipara
    • Mangawhai
  • Auckland
  • Waikato
    • All Waikato
    • Hamilton
    • Coromandel & Hauraki
    • Matamata & Piako
    • Cambridge
    • Te Awamutu
    • Tokoroa & South Waikato
    • Taupō & Tūrangi
  • Bay of Plenty
    • All Bay of Plenty
    • Katikati
    • Tauranga
    • Mount Maunganui
    • Pāpāmoa
    • Te Puke
    • Whakatāne
  • Rotorua
  • Hawke's Bay
    • All Hawke's Bay
    • Napier
    • Hastings
    • Havelock North
    • Central Hawke's Bay
    • Wairoa
  • Taranaki
    • All Taranaki
    • Stratford
    • New Plymouth
    • Hāwera
  • Manawatū - Whanganui
    • All Manawatū - Whanganui
    • Whanganui
    • Palmerston North
    • Manawatū
    • Tararua
    • Horowhenua
  • Wellington
    • All Wellington
    • Kapiti
    • Wairarapa
    • Upper Hutt
    • Lower Hutt
  • Nelson & Tasman
    • All Nelson & Tasman
    • Motueka
    • Nelson
    • Tasman
  • Marlborough
  • West Coast
  • Canterbury
    • All Canterbury
    • Kaikōura
    • Christchurch
    • Ashburton
    • Timaru
  • Otago
    • All Otago
    • Oamaru
    • Dunedin
    • Balclutha
    • Alexandra
    • Queenstown
    • Wanaka
  • Southland
    • All Southland
    • Invercargill
    • Gore
    • Stewart Island
  • Gisborne

Media

  • Video
    • All Video
    • NZ news video
    • Herald NOW
    • Business news video
    • Politics news video
    • Sport video
    • World news video
    • Lifestyle video
    • Entertainment video
    • Travel video
    • Markets with Madison
    • Kea Kids news
  • Podcasts
    • All Podcasts
    • The Front Page
    • On the Tiles
    • Ask me Anything
    • The Little Things
  • Cartoons
  • Photo galleries
  • Today's Paper - E-editions
  • Photo sales
  • Classifieds

NZME Network

  • Advertise with NZME
  • OneRoof
  • Driven Car Guide
  • BusinessDesk
  • Newstalk ZB
  • Sunlive
  • ZM
  • The Hits
  • Coast
  • Radio Hauraki
  • The Alternative Commentary Collective
  • Gold
  • Flava
  • iHeart Radio
  • Hokonui
  • Radio Wanaka
  • iHeartCountry New Zealand
  • Restaurant Hub
  • NZME Events

SubscribeSign In
Advertisement
Advertise with NZME.
Home / New Zealand

<i>Rudman's city:</i> Answer to council prayer may be compromise

Brian Rudman
By Brian Rudman
Columnist·
9 Dec, 2001 06:56 AM5 mins to read

Subscribe to listen

Access to Herald Premium articles require a Premium subscription. Subscribe now to listen.
Already a subscriber?  Sign in here

Listening to articles is free for open-access content—explore other articles or learn more about text-to-speech.
‌
Save

    Share this article

By BRIAN RUDMAN

The controversial North Shore City prayer asks God to "give us your spirit so that we may make decisions with wisdom and maturity", but there are no signs of this request getting through. Or if she got the message, of it being answered.

Mayor George Wood remains just as
stubbornly in support of the prayer as he ever was, while from the suburbs his supporters have been penning letters of abuse with a level of invective I've not seen since the days of the Vietnam War and Springbok tour protests.

You will recall how new North Shore councillor Andrew Williams was both surprised and offended to discover at his first council meeting that proceedings began with a Christian prayer, intoned by the mayor, suggesting it was God, rather than the voters, who had called councillors to public service.

Threatening to complain to the Human Rights Commission, Mr Williams argued it was illegal to impose religious views on others. His comments split the community - and council.

Mr Wood's only concession is to pretend the prayer is not part of the meeting by removing it from being the first item on the agenda into some Never-Never Land immediately before the official opening.

However, he is insisting that the prayer remain printed as part of the council agenda.

The difference seems minuscule. In the past, councillors who did not want to be part of the prayer waited for the meeting to be opened, then stood a pace or three back from their chairs while Mr Wood prayed, then they returned to their seats. Either that, or they hovered outside the council chamber until the prayer was said, then slunk into their seats.

The so-called compromise has all dissenters lurking outside until after the prayer, then bursting in to take their seats. Either way, it's an unedifying and unnecessary spectacle. Unedifying, also, have been the abusive letters.

Mr Williams has sent me a few he received. Like the one threatening to persuade hundreds of Christians not to vote for him next time or the one from "Concerned Ratepayer" suggesting he was showing complete lack of respect for others' beliefs.

There was even one on company letterhead from L.J. Hooker director Frank McGuckian. The real estate man accuses him of "displaying a level of arrogance that implies a general lack of wisdom". Claiming councillors should be upholding Christian moral values, he says "Should you not uphold Christian beliefs and values then you are acting undemocratically in endeavouring to impose your beliefs (or lack of) on others."

Talk about losing the plot. All Mr Williams was asking was that the Christian prayer no longer be an integral part of a secular council meeting representing a multi-cultural community.

But as Chief Human Rights Commissioner Rosslyn Noonan observed to me, New Zealanders are bad at talking through an issue without immediately denigrating and rejecting the viewpoints of others.

Mr Williams is still considering a complaint to the Human Rights Commission. However, a similar complaint from Wayne Church, president of the New Zealand Secular Society, suggests he won't get much joy.

Mr Church was upset earlier this year by a karakia being delivered at a public meeting called under the auspices of the Hawkes Bay Regional Council to consider wastewater consents. The commission refused to handle the case on the grounds that for there to be a legitimate complaint of discrimination, you need to show damage has been inflicted on you. It's not good enough to say you don't like something.

Unbowed, Mr Church went off to the Complaints Review Tribunal. In March this year his complaint was again rejected, the tribunal observing "his level of comfort for the duration of the karakia is not relevant to establishing a breach" of the act.

It pointed out "the karakia was a prayer and did not contain expressions of hostility or contempt for any racial or ethnic grouping".

Mr Church appealed to the High Court, but made his run a little late. Last Thursday his application was rejected because he hadn't got his papers in on time.

All of which is hardly good news for Mr Williams, who is still unhappy with the so-called mayoral compromise which "obviously doesn't respect other people's beliefs or logical argument".

For Rosslyn Noonan it is one of those issues which she would expect "mature New Zealanders should be able to sort out".

Emphasising she wasn't commenting on any individual case, she says "we have to recognise public authorities certainly shouldn't be using religion in a way that excludes those not of the religion that is being used.

"But I think a few moments of meditation before the opening of a meeting is not something that anyone could object to." She adds that "it might be desirable to think about the words that are used during the period of meditation being changed from time to time and being inclusive of different religious perspectives or even humanistic perspectives".

That sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. How it will go down among the mature leaders of the North Shore, however, is another question.

Advertisement
Advertise with NZME.
Advertisement
Advertise with NZME.
Save

    Share this article

Latest from New Zealand

New Zealand

'Asbestos material': Fire lights up night sky in West Auckland

13 Jul 09:36 AM
Sport

Black Sox looking for eighth win at Softball World Cup

13 Jul 08:11 AM
Crime

Man jailed after forcing children to witness horrific animal cruelty

13 Jul 08:00 AM

From early mornings to easy living

sponsored
Advertisement
Advertise with NZME.

Latest from New Zealand

'Asbestos material': Fire lights up night sky in West Auckland

'Asbestos material': Fire lights up night sky in West Auckland

13 Jul 09:36 AM

Fire crews were called to the scene around 7.30pm.

Black Sox looking for eighth win at Softball World Cup

Black Sox looking for eighth win at Softball World Cup

13 Jul 08:11 AM
Man jailed after forcing children to witness horrific animal cruelty

Man jailed after forcing children to witness horrific animal cruelty

13 Jul 08:00 AM
One person dead after two-car crash in Canterbury town

One person dead after two-car crash in Canterbury town

13 Jul 06:30 AM
Solar bat monitors uncover secrets of Auckland’s night sky
sponsored

Solar bat monitors uncover secrets of Auckland’s night sky

NZ Herald
  • About NZ Herald
  • Meet the journalists
  • Newsletters
  • Classifieds
  • Help & support
  • Contact us
  • House rules
  • Privacy Policy
  • Terms of use
  • Competition terms & conditions
  • Our use of AI
Subscriber Services
  • NZ Herald e-editions
  • Daily puzzles & quizzes
  • Manage your digital subscription
  • Manage your print subscription
  • Subscribe to the NZ Herald newspaper
  • Subscribe to Herald Premium
  • Gift a subscription
  • Subscriber FAQs
  • Subscription terms & conditions
  • Promotions and subscriber benefits
NZME Network
  • The New Zealand Herald
  • The Northland Age
  • The Northern Advocate
  • Waikato Herald
  • Bay of Plenty Times
  • Rotorua Daily Post
  • Hawke's Bay Today
  • Whanganui Chronicle
  • Viva
  • NZ Listener
  • Newstalk ZB
  • BusinessDesk
  • OneRoof
  • Driven Car Guide
  • iHeart Radio
  • Restaurant Hub
NZME
  • About NZME
  • NZME careers
  • Advertise with NZME
  • Digital self-service advertising
  • Book your classified ad
  • Photo sales
  • NZME Events
  • © Copyright 2025 NZME Publishing Limited
TOP