KEY POINTS:
The 9 o'clock bell may be relegated to the past at New Zealand's first state senior high school.
It depends on whether the Albany school accepts a suggestion that classes start at 10am.
The school is due to open in February 2009 and will cater for up to 1500 students in Years 11, 12 and 13.
This forum debate has now closed. Here is a selection of your views on the topic.
Lauren
10am sounds great. Better yet, why not extend their 13 weeks holiday a year to 20 or so, then these kids can sleep longer, eat more pies and play more playstation. Go the NZ school system!
Parent
All of the comments seem to be about relieving traffic flow from people who went to school. I assume when they were younger and now want to relegate pupils to suit their traffic or work practices. Have they thought about changing their work practice - it doesn't appear so. What about the parents who have to fit the childrens time scale into their daily lifes and at the end of the day if they start at 10, then they would logically finish about 5. Has any one of these people promoting such an idea driven around school at end of school - I would suggest not. It s significantly worse than the morning and what a way to finish their day. Stick to the way things are as that is the way life goes on. Do not let this be a guinea pig as parents will take their children out of their and it will be one big white elephant creating overcrowding at "normal" schools.
Mama Mia (Auckland)
Good grief. Are there no more important issues to debate for the good of New Zealand than whether school kids are to start 9 or 10 am? Please, stop moaning and groaning and get on with life and remember to start shouting when the real issues press on.
Chris-Auckland Secondary Teacher
A 10am start may cater for the needs of some students, but it should be remembered that, internationally at least, a 9am start is actually quite a late one. For example, many high schools in the USA start at 7:50am (some at 7am), but finish around 3:00. Yes, there is some evidence that early high school start times may relate to adolescent sleep insufficiency and, therefore, worse grades in early classes. However, the real culprit may not be the school hours, but senior students having too many late nights. How will they cope with (e.g.) 8am university classes or, worse still, having to leave home at 6:30am to make it through dense traffic to their workplace. If senior high schools are training students for tertiary study and/or the workforce, then a start time around 10am is giving the wrong message. A 9am start is convenient for parents and adequate for the required 9 hours sleep the night before. If we carry the later start argument to its logical conclusion then we should heed those studies that suggest that teens are most alert in the evenings and have a start time of, say, 5pm.
Quentin
The science behind this may be proven, but what is the difference between a 16yo going to school one day and a 17yo starting work the next? A lot of this could be managed if teenagers had more structure to their lives and adequate exercise. When my teenager was getting tired, lethargic and not wanting to get up in the morning, it was nothing to do with brain function...she was staying up at night texting her mates on the phone until midnight. Solution - take the phone off her at night when at home! Not change the school hours.
Miss W
What a fabulous idea! Like many people for whom the professional workforce is not currently compatible, I am a night person, and would welcome the opportunity to work at a school that let me sleep in till the sun was most definitely risen. Therefore I would be against the proposed study time, which I doubt many would attend anyway. Arguments that the workplace isn't structured like that only highlight what a good idea it would be to stagger start and finish times for workers to both suit their circadian circumstances and relieve traffic pressure. However, regarding the aim of boosting educational achievement, the best way to attain this goal will always be to reduce class sizes.
John Robb
Whatever the issue is in these forums I just wish the people who seem to be totally fed up with NZ and add nothing constructive to the debates would just leave and write their uninformed, unintelligent, whining letters to the Sydney Morning Herald. There's nothing wrong with dissent, but the childish repartee on this subject makes me wonder if some of you have been to school at all.
Spencer, Newmarket
Considering this is one school in a highly populated area I think the concept is one well worth trying and measuring. Firstly, the impact on morning rush hour is worth considering, would parents decide to let kids make their own way to school instead of ferrying them in on their way to work? Secondly, the science behind the brain development of teenagers would suggest this plan to be viable. Thirdly, the argument regarding 'preparing teenagers for work' is so irrelevant it borders on the ridiculous. A huge percentage of the kids for whom this proposal would apply will go on to University or other further education, where classes / lectures start at various times during the day ranging from 8am to late afternoon thus this particular argument is null and void. Finally, any attempts to improve the learning process of today's youth must be applauded, measured and applied where appropriate if successful. Parents blame teachers, teachers blame the government, everyone is looking left and right to distribute responsibility - wait to see if this works before you bag it - have we run out of tall poppies to cut down that we have to start attacking people with initiative?
Tim
Brilliant Idea!!! Has anyone taken the time to think how this affects early morning traffic? The roads will be free of inconsiderate parents dropping their kids off at the lights and clogging the roads between 7.30am to 8.30am.Ever thought about why there isn't much traffic during the school holidays?!?! If our kids learn more its a win, win situation.
David
I have a better idea. All pupils are to be on parade at 8.30am for a solid 20 minutes physical exercise. A check on haircuts and fingernails can be thrown in for added value. By 9.0 pm they will be wide awake enough for some learning. As well as a healthy start the school day should be to at least 4.0 pm. Our standards may then begin to improve. More discipline and teaching is required, not less. Extreme cases of bad behaviour should see the return of the cane.Then we can get rid of this government and all its social engineering and begin to restore a decent caring and successful society.
Trilby
Splendid idea! It's not as though we're a tropical country where you need to avoid the heat of the day. The schools can give a lead to our workplace environment, too. I've always hated the NZ obsession with rushing in to offices at the obscenely early hour of 8:30. 9:30 or 10 is much more civilised.
Allison
If children are finding it hard to concentrate at 9.00am, it's probably got more to do with lack of sleep, no exercise and unhealthy food than anything else! How about a few laps around the school rugby field at 8.45 before classes start? That might wake them up.
Good Grief!
So let's all have time to 'wake up'! I suggest we all arrive at work an hour late or perhaps just have an hour on arrival to give us time to smooje about and yarn, play on our mobile phones, etc in order to 'wake up'. How much more are we going to pander to our already overindulged children? When is someone out there going to tell them like it is? The world is a tough place, we all have to earn a living which involves keeping to time, working to rule etc. Young people have to start to learn these basics at school. Oh give me a break! Is this nonsense for the kids or for the benefit of some very lazy teaching staff?
Zpete
Wow. I guess there will be nappy changing time too. Get real. Consider the teachers, will they have to start early to make up for lost evenings, when will they have time out? Lots finish late after doing reports and checking the day's assignments.
Bron
First off, I am horrified at the amount of negative comments aimed towards New Zealanders, teenagers and their productivity. How can you expect those around you to achieve and feel positive about success if all you do is tell them that they are lazy, unproductive, unhealthy, will be/are useless parents and likely to end up/are on the dole? Us as New Zealanders should be ashamed of these kind of comments and should be using Your Views to build on creative thinking and research, rather than using them as a vent hole for our negative attitudes. From personal experience, I found that being alert at 9am was not my forte, and this continues to be the case whether I am at university or working full-time. However, I made it through high school just fine, and achieved good enough grades for it. Moving the school day to 10am sounds good theoretically in a scientific journal, but I do not think realistically that the benefits of moving the school day to a later time outweigh the costs.
AJHS parent
As pupils attending this school share buses with Westlake, Carmel, Rosmini, Long Bay College this idea will only work if all High Schools on the Shore agree to start and finish later. As for the comments posted about the lazy children. Some of our kids are up at 5 to go swimming or to the gym before school, a number of year 9 pupils arrive at school at 7 to do 90 minutes of exercise before class. This does not even touch on after school commitments, which will be affected by changes to the school day. As a parent associated with AJHS I am concerned that this idea has been taken to trial by media before we have been consulted. This may work for those students who do not have a life outside of school but not for those who are well rounded and motivated individuals.
Jenny
Great idea. Gets thousands of students' cars off Auckland's congested roads to allow workers to get to work. Once workers are off the road traffic will be lighter for students. Win-win for everybody! Should've happened a long time ago.
Mt Wellington
Close to the motorway At least the traffic in the mornings and afternoons wont be so hectic.
Philip
What a fantastic idea. They should also spoon feed the kids until they're 18!
Karl Rohde
It is proven clinically that teenagers sleep requirements are "different". They still have to be there at 9.00am, they just don't have to engage their brain (a pointless exercise at that time of the morning for a teenager) I suggest you all read the following:
http://www.sleepfoundation.org/site/c.huIXKjM0IxF/b.2419127/k.9C6C/Sleep_and_Teens.htm
Also, in Europe they start at 9.30am, and as Europe has more productivity per person than NZ, your arguments it will have a negative impact on business productivity is completely unfounded. Face it, Kiwi employees are generally lazy full stop.
John
This story is surely a joke and was meant to be published on April 1. In case it isn't a joke, then I suggest schools should be starting earlier, at say 8am, not later. This would mean school can finish at lunchtime and afternoon sport could begin around 2pm. Yes, students can actually get back to playing sport. This 10am start will give students even more reason not to play sport which is sadly lacking in schools today. As for the argument some students study better later in the day - what rubbish. That is some insignificant statement plucked out the air to justify the 10am argument. It is well known that most people are more alert earlier in the day than later on. I remember very well nodding off the last couple of periods at school, and I started at 8am. PC gone mad – again!
Grant
Dolly - you are absolutely right. You should be Prime Minister. It is not the teenager's fault they are staying up late and too tired to go to school. It is the "no hoper" parents. Parents have to be parents and set boundaries. Too many have become brainwashed by whatever philosophy is going round. Why do we all have to descend to a level of mediocrity to accommodate those who haven't a clue. It is time we set the standard higher and left a few people behind.
Brad (Auckland)
There is actually sound scientific evidence that the body clock of teenagers is more suited to a later start in the mornings, and that they are much more mentally alert when they are allowed to "sleep in" a little longer than adults. The reality is, that school kids aren't prepared for the timetable of the everyday workforce by school hours at present anyway, they finish at 3pm! So I think the argument that they'll just get "soft" from being allowed to sleep in is a completely ridiculous one. School is about as far removed from the average working environment as you can possibly get and it is naive to think otherwise, so why not let them sleep in a little later if it will improve their alertness, and ultimately improve their grades? Any argument to the contrary smacks of the old "Well, In my day we didn't..." mentality, and lets face it, if we listened to the naysayers with that sort of attitude, we'd still be living in cave, making tools out of stone. Personally I think this is a long overdue initiative, as researchers have been saying that this is the way to go for a number of years now. Leave "preparing kids for the workforce" until they're actually in the workforce.
Sue
This is absolutely ridiculous and can only be training for the dole which the majority of NZers seem to be on. The real working world starts 9am at the latest for some people and much earlier for others.
Julie
Why not start schools at 7am? That way the intolerable school related traffic may have cleared by the time the workers rush starts. At the same time, we could increase the driving age to 18, thus eliminating a whole raft of problems related to incompetent immature drivers as well as the jam of students cars around the secondary schools. How will students get to school? Walking used to be an option- this might help with the obesity epidemic as well. And while we are about it, why not increase the drinking age to 20- since younger people seem to repeatedly prove they are too immature to drink sensibly. An early night and a good breakfast, followed by a brisk walk to school will ensure kids are bright eyed and ready to learn at 7am.
Geoff
Honestly? Are our tax dollars been spent on discussing the start time for school students? Have our MP's run out of things to talk about? Dont think this will make an ounce of difference to the energy levels or attention span of school students. If you extend the start time to 9.00am they'll just stay up longer before they go to bed during the week. This will make little to no difference. How about looking at more important issues.
XPD (Auckland)
Are kids ever at school these days ? They seem to be on holidays every month anyway. Starting at 10 is a stupid idea, I dont see employers telling their new out-of-school staff "Sure start at 10 instead of 8/9 and go home at 4". Kids have it too easy these days.
Caleb
I don't know why people are banging on about this "not preparing them for the real world". Most will go on to uni, where in most degrees, you have about 12-15 hours of class a week. It's all very relaxed, many late starts, and lots of breaks. And also, the opposition for this seems to be coming from people probably over 40, who think this generation is lazy and would like things to be like the "good old days". Well, get with the times! I resent anyone who says it used to be better, and that the youth of today have no idea. Rubbish! To move forward we need to embrace change, not resist it at all costs. This could prove to be a great move for a school, and it shows that not everyone is stuck in the past.
Chris
People have missed the point that the world is changing, and Aucklanders have to learn to deal with it. I attended schools in NZ and abroad and the schools that started later had more successful student. As teenagers the natural body cycle is to sleep in the morning and be awake at night. Now most will rubbish this but please think if you are actually any good at science before you do, particularly circadian cycles. If you don't know what that means you obviously aren't very good and should refrain from entering this debate. I am stunned that as honest discussions have started on a topic that should be studied to see what the costs and benefits are (not just financial, but the easing traffic congestion will help. My personal concern is skipping school will be easier) people have sought to throw their toys and defend their generation. It's lovely that they are so proud of their own upbringing (I am stunned some of the respondents have children after their comments!) but they need to realise this is a discussion worthy of proper investigation of the practicalities and the benefits of such a new system. Investigations don't hurt anyone.
Simon (Kingsland)
This is a great idea, if only as it will help to alleviate the horrid morning traffic congestion. For those that say it won't prepare young folk for the workplace, how does the current system of schools finishing at 3-3.30pm reflect the (outdated) 'working week' model anyway?
Wellymum
Brilliant!! But why stop there? What about kids teaching other kids because every parent knows, adults know nothing and teenagers know everything. Why not consider the poor teachers who will be obliged to change their whole working system as there will only be senior students at this college. If teenagers can get themselves out of bed early enough to play sport, they can get up early enough to have a chance at a decent job!
Nick (Rotorua)
Another brilliant idea to drag NZ kids further behind the rest of the world! Try and imagine that most kids in Asia have to get to school by 7am and prepare for the classes starting at 8am. What a wonderful school life NZ kids are already having now in comparison! The outcome is probably that we will have fatter, lazier and more anti-social kids than ever.
Kevin
While I dont think it will help our teenagers adjust to life after school, it may help to reduce, or at least, spread out, our morning peak hour traffic. Much of this is school related after all.
Fiona
My kids currently go to an International School in Thailand. They are up each morning at 5.45 to be awake, washed and breakfasted and down to catch the bus at 6.40. They arrive at school at 7.00am and start the day at 7.25. They are not lazy, as seems to be a common misconception of the kids of today. With sport and other activities after school for 3 - 4 days of the week they are often not home until 5pm. We intend to return to NZ for the beginning of the next school year and the prospect for them of even an 8.30 start to the school day is luxury - a 10am start would be unimaginable.
Jayme
I finished school in 06 and have since just been working part time and traveling. Also pursuing my sport professionally. Now I work full time as a broker starting at 8.30 finishing late then having football training in the evenings and often not getting to bed till 10.30/11pm. When I was at school i would frequently be on the late list and always struggle paying attention for the morning classes. The idea of classes starting at 10am is great, because that was about the time my brain switched on for learning. But the idea is not to get use to it and having a roll call/home room start at 9.30 would be a good idea as it gets the kid's to school, and enough of the morning to "wake up"... ...for those of you that claim that it "prepares you for your work life" is wrong. Even though you may get in at 9am, you have had your morning coffee, had a chance to get your morning duties done, and then hello! its 9.30. Your job is the same thing everyday, your not having to pay 110 per cent of your attention to what is happening.
Jon Cullen (Cambridge, UK)
I think 10am is a great idea. I always did my best work at night and struggled to make 9am most days in high school. I always did much worse in morning exams. Some of us are just wired differently.
Claire (Auckland)
I personally don't see what the problem is. As for the "we should harden them up for employment" argument, presumably a 10am start will mean a 4.30pm finish - closer to the late night finishes they can expect when working. Variety is good.
Bernice Kershaw
I totally agree with a later start date for lectures, having just completed a degree, I found that the 'early morning' lectures were a real trial, and no real learning occurred until after the first break and classes recommenced at 10.00 am. Good idea, all schools should do it.
Peter (Parnell)
If anything the schools should open earlier, for the first shift from 7.00am to 12.00, and then have a second shift in the afternoon from 1.00 to 6.00pm. It works in other countries. That way we shift the traffic burden away from peak hours and reduce the need for additional capital for new schools.
Dean
Be good idea help with traffic flow seen as kids too feeble to walk to school these days in a city with traffic as bad as Sydney but with only one million people
PD
What a load of politically correct claptrap! Mind you what else can one expect from schools these days? I would like to submit the following sage words attributed to Bill Gates. Bill Gates recently gave some college students a list of 10 things they did not learn at school:
Rule 1: life is not fair; get used to it. Rule 2: The world usually won't care about your self esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something before you feel good about yourself. Rule 3: You will not make $40,000 per year right out of college. You won't be vice president with a car phone, until you earn both. Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.
NLJ
Start the school day at 8.am ad finish at 4.35pm - a real work day
Cut down on the amount of holidays Be like other countries and have catch up days due to weather etc.
Aaron
I don't see a problem with this. So far the only argument people have come up with against this is, "What happens when they get into the real world!" Well, at University classes start at all times of the day, I had an entire year where I only had classes in the afternoon. Also in the "real world" jobs can start at many different times of the day; early mornings, afternoons and evenings.
Wendy Perriam
So if the experiment of schooldays starting at 10.00am (for teenage students) becomes mainstream, what will happen to our workforce in a few years time? Can we please stop molly-coddling our kids and start preparing them for the real world. And the real world, even though it is more flexible nowadays, means an 8.00am/8.30am start 5 days a week for most employees. This move in my view will do nothing to ultimately help these students.
Matt
This is obviously just another PC idea cowardly giving into the I want it generation. But there are some positives. Traffic will be spread over a longer period of time so I can get to work easier in my car. The kids won't get the best carparks. My kids will still be in bed when I leave for work so I won't have to speak to them in the morning, Thats at least one less argument a day. I will be in bed before my kids get home - as above. And as for the comment about where an unqualified 16 year gets a job starting at 10AM - easy - Helen gives them enough to buy beer and pizza so why would they even want a job.
Neil (Auckland)
It wasn't enough that kids today are getting lazier (and fatter) by being driven to school by the moms, and exams getting dumbed down so that they don't have to study as hard. Now this!?! So what happens when these kids enter the workforce? Will the corporate world be forced to start the work day later for this spoilt generation?
Pablo
On one hand this has merit as teenagers have a circadian rhythm (sleep cycle) more suited to late mornings. On the other hand, it's another step towards wrapping our kids in bubblewrap and then being astounded when they throw bottles at police. Kids need to learn personal responsibility, consequences and discipline.
Alan Gibb (Devonport)
Hey, get real! We should be preparing these children for the realities of a commercial and competitive world. The next thing John Parlane will be discussing is giving students a hot Milo and cuddly toy.
Mark
Sounds like a great marketing ploy to me. Some school that doesn't even open for a couple of years is front page news.
Dolly
Another stupid idea from the PC brigade. How is this going to affect the parents who are endeavoring to get their teenagers to go to bed at a reasonable hour, and rise at a reasonable hour? As usual, they have to accommodate the no-hoper parents who allow their teens to do whatever they please. This is another example of failing to teach our young people any of the responsibilities that go along with the "rights" they appear to be learning. You have the right to be educated, along with the responsibility of turning up at class ready to learn - oh wait, that doesn't fit in with the right to stay up all night or lie about in bed all morning.
Kirstie (North Shore)
A fine idea in principle but in practice it is a different story. Firstly teenagers leave school and enter the workforce. Many jobs start at 8am and getting to that job may require leaving home at 7am or earlier. A later start to the school day will not help tomorrows school leavers. Secondly the fact that teens learn better later in the day is a generalisation. I for one used to get up early in order to study and do homework because I made silly mistakes when studying late at night.
Stark
The fact that an issue like this is even raised indicates the spurious nature of the "benefits" of daylight saving. As far as needing time to wake up, I guess getting up earlier would be too much of an imposition on kids' lifestyles. All the same, anything that keeps them off the road during commuting time is OK by me.
Mum of 3, the Naki
Two points to consider - is this the way to train our future workers? Many jobs require an early start so how are these children going to cope later in life? Go to bed earlier, get sleep at the right time, be responsible, especially at this age..... or this to easy to ask?
John Wilson
I had no trouble turning up at high school at
9 o'clock in the morning ready to go. If I was tired I went to bed early and caught up on my sleep. Why should schools have to change their hours for kids who want to say up later at night?
Michelle Moore
I think this is not a great idea. It's not a very realistic view of how the students will have to operate once they get into normal working life. I think that the 9am start gets you into more of a routine that you continue on with for most of your adult life.
Paul Davey
Absolutely ludicrous idea! A key objective of putting kids through a full education is to prepare them for life in the "real world". By tuning their putty-like brains into a 10am start is basically setting them up for a hard fall when they move on to university or, even worse, a job.
Gillian Moody
Firstly, the research I have seen claiming that teenagers can't study early in the morning came from America where some classes start before 7am. The later start time proposed was 8:30am. Secondly, if the "majority of students would be enrolled out of choice, not because they [are] under the legal school leaving age of 16" then the majority of these students have a choice: Go to school, and study calculus at 9am, or leave school and get a job. How many jobs are there for people who have not completed high school with a start time of 10am? Surely the least New Zealand schools can do to prepare older teenagers for the "real world" is enforce "real world" start times?
Grant (Auckland)
Are they seriously considering starting school at 10am, just to allow students time to 'wake up?' What is with this country! There are many a generation who started at the usual time of 9am and are now in the work force and I am sure they were not disadvantaged because of this 'early start; How are today's youth ever going to enter the real world once they have completed school if they are pampered too now? They will enter the work force thinking that they can start when they want, take time off when they want etc as that is they way they have been brought up by today's 'PC' standards.
Karen H
Kids win once again. Maybe early nights would help with their early morning studies. I just can't believe how the world is changing so that kids can adapt. This is why they are such a sniveling bunch of youths these days. It is just unbelievable. It is unimaginable to think that this generation will be looking after me when I am retired. Shock horror. Where will it stop?
Not-so-long-ago student
Leaving secondary study at yr 13 a few years back, I can positively say that this would not be a good idea.I know for a fact, that "self-directed study" simply wont work...And I know for a fact that starting later also is not good for students, as we did have one day a week in my last year of school where my school would start late and it caused havoc. I believe it was a good thing for students to get up early and get to school by 8.30 as Most of us learnt more in the morning and lost our concentration span by the afternoon.
Rupert (Auckland)
This suggestion is appalling. The students at the new school are approaching the time when they will be entering the work force. When in full time work they won't be allowed to start work later just because they have to have time to 'wake up' They are more likely to be expected to start work much earlier than the current 9:00am.
Paula
An excellent idea! I also think that the government should be enforcing the parents of these teenagers to provide cooked breakfasts. A law should be introduced making it illegal for parents to allow their children to rise out of bed without being greeted with the smell of sizzling bacon. Studies have proven that teenagers are averse to helping around the home, parents of teenagers should be prosecuted for insisting that their off-spring make their beds, pick up wet towels and occasionally mow the lawn. Teachers should be held accountable for giving homework and expecting it to be completed within a set time frame. Our teenagers needs and wants in society are not being met. In fact, schools should only be teaching between the hours of midday and 3pm. The reason for this is because studies show that the teenage brain cannot cope with the television viewing options during this time.
One opinion
What happens when they get out in the real world and have to get up early like most people do to get to work on time?
S. (Auckland)
Schools are getting worse and worse every day? The joke that is NCEA, no more exams, no such word as "fail" and now they will all get a lovely lie in. How on earth are these kids supposed to handle having to get a ... (yes, it's almost a curse word) job? Next thing you know they will be handing out blankies and giving them movies to watch for homework. Send them all to boot camp - they are all getting spoilt and all the schools are turning out these days are precious brats who are no use to anyone.
