KEY POINTS:
New Zealand's top Family Court judge says offenders who are now too young to be charged with crimes must be made more accountable for their actions.
Judge Peter Boshier said he was shocked at what he saw happening in families now compared with what he saw 19 years ago."Twelve-year-olds, many of whom are committing quite heavy crimes, need to be more accountable than the present system is able to make them," he said.
This forum debate has now closed. Here is a selection of your views on the topic.
Raewyn
I fully agree with Judge Boshiers comments that the age of accountability should be reduced to 12 years. I have a step daughter who committed arson 2 weeks before her 14th birthday, knowing full well that she couldnt be charged. She was referred to CYFS and we duly had a family conference but nothing came from it and the police youth aid officer was not prepared to do anything to support her fathers and my request that she be made accountable for what she had done, by way of a community service, and the school just washed there hands of the situation. (I think she had to pick up litter during the lunch break for a week). This was totally ridiculous given that she was truant most days and was smoking cannabis. She was eventually expelled for drug relative reasons. This young lady has gone on to have two children by the time she was nineteen, smoking and doing "P" through her pregnancies. The first child died from SIDS, and the second child is now in CYFS care after his lif e was endangered. (The child has been diagnosed as a "P" baby and has developmental and behavioural problems). The mother has entered a programme to address her Drug and alcohol problems but in the meantime the child now resides with, part of his mothers family, but they have had to change their whole lives to foster the child and meet his needs, and it will remain this way for some time. The mother can not see that she didnt do anything wrong and believes the child belongs with her. A lot of these problems may never have occurred if the girl had been made accountable for the arson and to face her drug problem when she was 13/14 years old, when the police and social workers had the opportunity to take action with the support of the immediate family.
Andrew Ellmers
It would be hard not to pay attention to the current comments made by Judge Boshier, considering the position he holds and amount of time and he has had in this position to form these views. It would also be hard not to give merit to his suggestions. Over this 18-year span Judge Boshier has observed this downward trend in our society, I did not notice any reference to the Family Court taking any responsibility for our current state of affairs. It is a broad term "the system", I guess this is the police, CYFS, MSD, other Government and non-Government organisations who have come under Judge Boshiers scrutiny. Unlike the Family Court, all of "the system" is open to scrutiny and criticism by the general public. Their actions and in-actions are in the public arena and we the public are the watchdogs of these agencies working in our communities via the media, Members of Parliament, action groups and even letters to editors As much as we need to voice our views, they need to hear them, how else do you develop dialogue, heated or otherwise? And, Judge Boshier is correct in his criticism; things are not looking good.If the Family Court had of been open to public scrutiny for the past 20 years or so it may have evolved and developed with society. The Family Court could have even been instrumental in doing great things and have participated in guiding our communities. Instead we look at such bleak statistics and read from one in a position beyond censure.
Rowena Simpkiss
I fully support Judge Boshiers comments. I am fed up with youth offenders being "soft pedalled" through the courts for serious crimes. Youth these days are fully accountable for their crimes and no full well what they are doing when they commit crimes.
Tracy
I believe this judges comments should be listened to. As a parent of a 14 yr old and an honest, hardworking member of society I support the idea of people, including 12 yr olds being held accountable for the actions. We have become a society where we are too lenient on criminals. I worked for a criminal lawyer in Otahuhu, Sth Auckland and have seen first hand what the justice system allows people to get away with. There is an old saying, "You do the crime, you do the time". If these kids are not punished now they will become more dangerous, more violent and then more decent people become victims.
Cath
Ultimately, children of 13 and under are too young to fully understand their actions and the consequences thereof. This is even more true if the child comes from a severely dysfunctional family in which the line between right and wrong may be blurred for them.Clearly, these children need to learn right from wrong and consequences of actions before they become any older, basically while their is still time for them to grow up to be good citizens. This should, first and foremost, be the responsibility of their parents. If their parents are incapable though it becomes the governments problem. I am South African and in the bad old days there were things called reform schools. I think this is the right approach. It would have to be carefully managed though to get the right balance between being punitive, educational and supportive. There are surely minds in this country that could come up with a program?
Sarah
Yes, I agree with the judge. Crimes by youths are getting worse and they should be held more accountable. Sometimes the parents are no help and some cant control their youths.
Annette
I, personally feel as a parent of a 16yr old, 13yr old & 10yr old, that any child aged over 10 should be held accountable for any wrong doings that they perform. By this age they know the difference between right & wrong and are also very clever because they are aware that they will not be prosecuted because they are underage. No matter their up bringing or their surroundings they make the choice on whether to commit a crime or not. Not everything should be blamed on the parents, or because they are not financially secure. If they are pressurised by their parents to get involved in criminal activities, then the parents should be charged alongside them. They need to learn that they must accept responsibility for their actions because if they are not forced to do this( be held accountable), they will continue in the path of destruction for themselves and the innocent victims that cross their path.
Rossnz
A crime is a crime is a crime. To define some crimes as youth crimes is to ignore reality. If a serious crime is committed the perpetrator should be dealt with irrespective of age. The present system just encourages young criminals. They commit the crimes because they know they cant be touched. The experiment has failed. It is time to do away with youth courts, family conferences and name supressions. One law for all, one court for all and one prison. That might get the message through.
B.Windler
By the time a child is 10- they should be fully versed in the rights and wrongs of their actions. ALL people have a responsibility to ensure the children relaise they have responsibilities to society as well as themselves. We have had 30 years of "indiviualism" and the breakdown of the family unit- the one parent familiy is fast becoming the norm and flies in the face of a balanced lifestyle- We all have a natural tendency to misbehave unless we are taught how not to as we grow up.
Lars
I almost fell off my chair reading your article on the comments made by youth court Judge Peter Boshier.Finally a judge who has come out with some common sense and not the standard politically correct head in the sand normal drivel we hear from the judges in this country.Good on him! We have a big problem with youth crime in this country we have gangs using under 14s to commit a lot of the petty crime as well as some more serious crimes because even the gangs know that the courts wont do anything to a under 14.They just laugh at the justice system because they know all they will get is a slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket. This means that by the time the courts can actually do anything to these young crims would have already committed over 100 crimes and are all ready too far down the criminal path to change.I say hit these youngsters hard and early so they know they cant get away with crime.Take the kids away from parents who cant or wont teach their kids right from wrong. I am in favour of prosecuting parents for their under 14s crimes as at the end of the day the parents should be accountable for their childrens actions. Make the parents pay for the damage their kids cause.If they cant pay financially make the parents and kids work off the debt to society by making them paint over graffiti or picking up rubbish or repairing damage caused by their kids. Show the parents and kids there are consequences to their actions and that we as a society wont accept it any more.But then again thats the hard option actually doing something about it.
Tom
I support Judge Boshiers comments entirely. We are a progressing and changing society and as such the law needs to adjust accordingly. I would like to add that dealing with the offender is only part of the problem and that due to their young age at which these children commit offences, parents need to appear alongside their children in the court. This would be to ensure that parents have not neglected their duty to provide an appropriate level of care and supervision to their child/ children. It is important to note that not all parents do a bad job and that some children will commit offences despite having all the appropriate love, care and protection. However as alluded to in the article, there are a number of dysfunctional families out there who need to be held accountable. How this is done would be open for debate, it may be radical but the Justice system and society struggles with what is currently happening for young offenders and their families. A clear message needs to be sent that parents will be held accountable for what their children do and as such one would hope that better parenting/ discipline would occur. The other issue is that rehab programmes are inadequate and there is insufficient focus on how to parent your children in NZ schools. There is also poor parenting styles in NZ families. The parental role and its importance needs greater emphasis from a young age and clear legal consequences need to be articulated to society for poor care of your child. We charge people for murdering their children but neglect/ poor supervision and a could care less attitude is just as important in allowing your child to develop antisocial behavioural difficulties.
John O Reilly
Give the Judge a medal. The victim must come first, at the age of 7 or less most children know the difference between right and wrong, and understand the idea of punishment. If a person is old enough to knowing commit a crime, then they are old enough to take the fall out.
Stephanie
Old enough to do the crime, old enough to do the time'. We are far toO slack on youth offenders in this country. They know what they are doing is wrong, but they know they can get away with a slap on the wrist if they get caught. These young thugs need to be shown the consequences of their actions - i.e. appropriate punishment.
Alan Miller
While I agree that children aged under 14 years should be held accountable, surely the parents should be held accountable also. Why cant the parents be charged as they are vicariously responsible for that child. I believe that they (the parents)should be hit hard the first time, if the child persists then hit them harder and if a third offence then the child is taken into foster care. The parents must be made responsible for their own children.
Mrs R
Children who are criminals (and no matter what age, but under the age of 18) should be moved to an island where there is nothing but a school to entertain them. No TV, no Computers, no alcohol, no cars to steal, no drugs, cigarettes etc to get. No visitors would be allowed there. Minimum stay should be 1 year. Kids should get so bored that they would be happy to attend school, sport and group activities. They could grow away from the bad influence they had before and, depending on age, could go after into foster care in a different city then they lived before.
John Price
I couldnt agree more with Judge Boshiers comments. We have heard all this garbage about "if were old enough to get a drivers licence", "old enough to go to war" etc then its time to say that children also display the adults responsibility. Trouble is there is too many people who excuse adults for sub standard behaviour and allow adults off the hook and the adults dont have to stand by their non performance and poor standard of behaviour. When there is a policy of being answerable for your mistakes, that are reported correctly, then we might start getting somewhere. Indeed, as a country, we should be worried, I guess thats why my brother has packed his family up and gone to live and take up citizenship overseas.
