KEY POINTS:
For a boy from South Auckland who left Papatoetoe High to be a BNZ bank teller, Ross Bay hasn't done too badly.
Ross-the-bank-teller is now Dean Ross, Dean Bay or simply the Dean. Last week, his first in the job, the Dean of Auckland, the Very Rev Ross
Bay still had moments when he had to pinch himself. At 42, in an industry that considers years of crusty experience as a prerequisite for a top job, Bay is young to become Dean. CEO, if you like, of the Cathedral parish, the centre of the diocese - 80-odd parishes from the Far North, down through the Auckland region to a line across the bottom of the Coromandel Peninsula.
But not - he laughs at the question - with a CEO's salary package. Yes, he assumes his mobile phone bill will be covered. And there is the use of a church-owned house behind the Cathedral during his tenure. But the salary is less than $50,000. Bay shrugs.
"Non-profit organisations are like that. There are a lot of people working in a kind of CEO role in small charities that are in the same position."
Meagre salary or not, the new dean can't quite contain his delight. The last time he worked in this building was 17 years ago as a nervous, newly ordained assistant to the then Dean of Auckland, John Rymer, who, despite the fact that he retired from the role 16 years ago (and died in 2003), still leaves big shoes to fill.
After a 21-year reign and a continued role in overseeing the building of the Holy Trinity's nave, John Rymer was, by the new dean's description, a remarkable man with "a huge presence".
But Auckland and indeed the nation's religious makeup has changed markedly since John Rymer became Dean in 1970.
The number of Anglicans - and the old family money - has steadily dwindled. Even since 1991, the drop is disturbing for an organisation that relies heavily on bequests and donations from its members who pass through church doors. From a tally of 732,000 in 1991, Anglican numbers dropped to 631,760 by 1996 and to 584,800 in the latest census. But less-mainstream religions gained ground and the choice of religion increased.
But the new Dean is undaunted by these figures, showing a cheerful resilience which was no doubt attractive to the Bishop of Auckland, John Paterson, and the group he consulted when they picked Bay for this job.
He is a consummate PR expert, politician and marketing guru rolled into one. He not so much dismisses the census figures but questions if they were loaded back in '91 by people who felt obliged to say they were Anglican because they were born that way or had been told they were.
With the skill of a politician responding to an unfavourable poll, Bay says he thinks "anecdotally" the numbers of Anglicans is holding.
"We're holding," he repeats. "We're not just slowly slipping into where we drop below a critical point. Census figures are only one slant."
He points to his new parish which, under the guidance of the previous Dean of Auckland, Richard Randerson (more big shoes to fill), has grown steadily in the past seven years. And also Bay's first parish, Ellerslie, which he spent seven years building "financially and numerically".
But maybe those new parishioners drove past other Anglican churches, or abandoned their own, to get there.
"Maybe," the new Dean concedes. "There is no doubt there are places where the numbers decline and there are other places where the numbers are growing. It's swings and roundabouts."
And putting census figures aside, he says, just look at the increased interest in spirituality.
The church has an opportunity to participate in that interest and make "more noise" on certain issues.
He's aware that some of his parishioners would disagree that the church should speak out. Randerson, was tagged "controversial" after criticising health workers for going on strike and for saying that because he did not believe God's existence could be scientifically proved, he could be considered an agnostic from a scientific perspective. That statement quickly became "Dean of Auckland declares himself an agnostic" in some people's minds.
The resulting backlash and Bay's own experience when he was criticised after a newspaper interview, in which he says his views on advances in medical technology were misconstrued, has been "a good learning curve".
It was an early lesson in the delicate balancing act of being a public figure and trying to keep everyone happy. The new Dean concluded early on that he couldn't.
"As soon as you say anything about anything you are going to upset someone. People want the church to speak out on issues, he says.
"But I think what often people are saying is 'I want the church to say what I think about that'. But as soon as you say something that they might not agree with then they say 'the church shouldn't be speaking about that'. So you're in a bit of a no-win situation."
The alternative, he says, is to do nothing, say nothing. And that is not an option.
Will he speak out on issues even if he knows he will upset some people?
"Absolutely. That's part of the role." He thinks it is "inevitable" he will get himself into hot water.
But for Bay there is no alternative. Quoting Edmund Burke, he says, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".
But will anyone listen? How relevant now is the role of Dean of Auckland in an age when most people not actively involved in the Anglican Church would have difficulty naming him?
"Very relevant," the new Dean insists. The cathedral is not only the central gathering place for the wider diocese, the place where the Synod and important events in the church's life are held, but it is a focal point for the thousands who use the building, for a school prizegiving, a concert, an APO performance or a rock singer's.
And back on his point about the church making more noise, Bay uses his views on medical technology as an example. There needs to be a debate within the community, he says, on the ethical implications of advances like gene technology.
"To what extent is it right for us to interfere in the natural stuff of life in order to make things happen?" Is it a good or bad thing to be able to eliminate medical afflictions before birth, and how far should we go, he asks?
"The potential is there for us to build a world that has people in it that we consider perfect. Where is the limit to which we meddle with nature?"
It is that sort of debate that the new Dean of Auckland sees happening in a place like the cathedral.