KEY POINTS:
Destiny Church Bishop Brian Tamaki's protest at Waitangi and a proposal to consider changing the parliamentary prayer have sparked lively religious debate and a discussion about whether NZ is a Christian nation.
This forum debate has now closed. Here is a selection of your views on the topic.
Anne (Auckland)
Wake up people! NZ has never had a state 'imposed' religion and never will. NZers can be whatever they want. This debate is blatant social engineering to attack the Christian Church. I wish to live in a country that is based on Christian values (as opposed to the rules of any Church). I do not wish to live by any other known value system and I particularly do not want to have to live by the values (or lack of them) of the individual who has power currently. At present this is Helen Clarke which is bad enough. It could be anyone - whose values would you choose to live by? We want to be ourselves and live with integrity. Christian values allow us, here and now, to do that. Other systems do not, including the individuals who detest Christianity. Please note that Labour is so tolerant, they refused to allow 'Grace' to be said at a state dinner to welcome the head of the Church of England. Not only intolerant but rude! Keep the prayer and start living up to it! There are many who know that our politicians make decisions based on their own agendas-not our welfare-that is no reason to throw out the standard.
William, Titirangi
If Brian Tamaki has all this support he talks about then he should be running for government office, I suspect that he wouldn't do as well as he thinks. I think it's wrong that he can get on TV or in the papers and rave about his religious beleifs, I am an atheist and I know that I wouldn't get away with discussing my beleif's that there is no God on TV or radio, I suspect that my beliefs would be censored. Mr Brian Tamaki should be reminded that everyone has their own right to believe in whatever they want to and they can do that without the need to give money to support his new lifestyle.
Annie, Mt Wellington
Please Mr Tamaki, stick to your own neck of the woods. Amen.
Humanist
Get rid of prayers in Parliament. Church and state separated from each other some 50 years or so ago in New Zealand. Change the wording of our national anthem too as people of different religious persuasions, or not as the case may be, must wonder to which god it refers to, and as for the Destiny Church - well they need to have tolerance preached to them. Especially the self proclaimed one at the top of that religious heap.
Karen van Noppen
History seems to demonstrate that states with state religions end up using them to oppress religious minorities. As a nation of free people, I don't think we want that. However let us not pretend that we are a secular nation. We are a nation made up of people with many different religions, including secular humanism (which is after all a set of beliefs) and religious tolerance should reach to all. I am concerned with the lack of tolerance shown towards Christians by our present government. What is the agenda here? It seems to me that our Prime Minister is opposing Christianity at every opportunity, not least in the vitriolic comments she repeatedly makes to the media, and Christians are feeling it. Is it any wonder her popularity is falling in the poles? We cannot change history. New Zealand does have a strong Christian heritage. We should be thankful for that, given that we have inherited a legal and political system, and huge social capital, from our Christian past. While avoiding a state religion, let us show Christianity the respect it deserves as part of our historical identity by keeping our prayer and anthem intact.
Russ
Letting the Destiny Church have any say in what NZ believes as a whole terrifies me. They seem to be on a destructive and hate filled tirade against all those not affiliated with them. Their behaviour at the gay pride parade put them on par with the Nazis as far as I'm concerned. The less say these hate-mongerers are given, the better.
K. Darragh
New Zealand has acknowledged its Christian foundations since it was first colonised and as a result been recognised as the perfect green clean jewel of the South Pacific. Why should we allow other cultures to bring their religious values with them when they immigrate to NZ. If people wish to come to this country to settle they must do so knowing that it is a Christian country and be prepared to leave their nationality, culture and religion behind and accept NZ values as their own. Otherwise stay out!
J Fowler (Auckland)
New Zealand, and the rest of the West, came to be where they are by the momentum supplied by Christianity. If in doubt, compare Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist countries and see which one you would rather like to live in. New Zealand used to be a Christian country in its hey day, now it is predominantly a post-Christian country.
If the prayer is not a true prayer from the heart, for any in Parliament, it should be removed, but God pity New Zealand. If any in Parliament do genuinely mean it, it should be retained. Perhaps God will have mercy on the rest for the sake of those few. Those that wish to eliminate the Christian influence must be prepared to accept the alternative, not a pleasant thought. Remove the ending "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ"? You remove the Christian component. Any churchman who prefers to remove it cannot be a real Christian.
Neilyd (Auckland)
My relationship with God - any God - is between me and God, it is not reliant on a State religion, or a church of any kind. It is not between me and the State or me and Brian Tamaki, or me and any church leader of any kind. Isn't it interesting that in a time when people want the State out of their lives in almost every aspect, these people want the State to tell us what it is that we should be worshipping. Sorry but if I have learnt anything about State involvement in my life it is that I do not want them involved in my religious or spiritual life. So I say no to State religion of any kind.
Jenny (Auckland)
No one would/should question that the last 150 yrs of NZ's history have been founded on Christian principles and ethics. It's something to be proud of. I would expect to encounter a similar Buddhist history in buildings and belief when I go to those countries whose heritage is Buddhist, neither would I expect them to lose that colourful part of their nation's flavour in order to satisfy my Christian beliefs. Why we can't say this country is Christian in origin is to deny those roots and to imply some sort of shame in it. Certainly, today, we have a multitude of faiths and should be looking at enjoying that range of ethnicities and beliefs, but not at the expense of our past. The prayer in Parliament should remain as it stands.
Rod
NZ already has a religion, it is called Rugby! We also have minor religions as well Netball, Softball etc. I just have one small question. Is it possible to use a pen to sign a document, and then by virtue of this act make every one Christain? I think that Jesus and the rest of His mates (Paul, James, Peter, John etc) will have a few words to say about that belief. That's right, Jesus the Christ came here to establish His Father back to us, and not to create a Theocracy.
Repeat of history
We have all heard of the crusades. Historians know all about how the church was the largest influence on the government. Religion once had full power over the populace of the world, today it does not. Religion got richer as we grew poorer, sent us to war for no gain of our own. Religious leaders through-out history have been the greatest offenders to religion itself. Someone tell me why it would be any different today when there is more to gain as a religious leader than a hard worker. Great wars have taken place in history over religion, denying people there right and freedom to choose what religion they follow will only lead to bad events. This is a great country and I have much pride for New Zealand, we are a multi-cultural country. By setting a state religion would be to deny the cultural rights of our neighbours. I am not religious, I am on this earth for one reason to life my life, not to line the pockets of religion with my hard earned cash, or to obey the rules of a religion that I do not call my own, nor to have religious ideals planted in political office.
Mark
If you want Easter and Christmas holidays then we have to be a Christian nation. Otherwise we need to call it summer holidays and autumn holidays, spring etc. Our year is planned according to Christian beliefs. We don't as a nation celebrate much so let's keep something traditional. We don't have the history of other countries we may as well keep what we've got.
Terry
Why not make Scientology our national religion? Membership could be made compulsory, along with weekly meetings as a requirement to get the Government deposits into our Kiwisaver accounts.
Lauren
Let's be serious, the prayer will not stop so-called "evil" in daily works. If you look through history it is, in fact, religion that has brought such tremendous evils into our world. New Zealand, like any other country, should have the right to chose. Government could organise a prayer (for those who insist) before things get started and everyone else can chose not to go. This way we are, as New Zealand does so well, being fair to all.
Rebecca
Has anyone actually read Tamaki's declaration? Considering Easter and Christmas are stats, our national anthem, flag, and the fact that, believe it or not - our Laws are based on judeo-christian tradition, NZ has an established religion. I don't want Christianity as a state religion, but I see nothing wrong with what Tamaki is proposing.
1. We formally recognise New Zealand as a Christian Nation.
2. Christianity affirms freedom of religious choice.
3. Future Governments shall protect and preserve New Zealand's Christian heritage and the above principles forever.
Note Point 2. Take the time to read both declarations before getting all up in arms and complaining!
Don Kavanagh
A couple of points. Firstly, when the various branches of Christianity quit bickering amongst themselves about which flavour is the "one true faith" then perhaps I, might start listening to them. Secondly, the majority of people did not claim Christianity as their religion in the census. 55 per cent of those who answered the question said they were Christian and I seem to remmember that working out to about 40-odd per cent of the population. Which leaves a majority apparently non-Christian. Can Brian Tamaki quit annoying the rest of us hellbound sinners now and return to fleecing his flock, a job he does so exquisitely well?
Deano
I think we need to get a good grasp of historical facts to have an informed debate. New Zealand never has been a 'Christian' country with a State Church like England or Germany, nor was it settled with primarily religious motivations like the American Pilgrim Fathers. Although the Christian Churches have historically played a very important role at many points of our history, the role has always been as a voluntary organisation, not as part of the Government. Welcoming and accepting people of all different religions and cultures is not a dilution of my Christian beliefs, but is rather an expression of love and 'Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you'.
My two cents worth
I'm not really fussed one way or the other but if push comes to shove, I would say that NZ has a secular government (and rightly so) so it shouldn't be in the business of official prayers. However, I still like the idea of politicians making some kind of affirming statement on a regular basis and being reminded that they serve the people. I am far more concerned with the coverage the media affords Destiny church. That's all I'm going to say on that topic because it doesn't matter what you say, it only encourages them.
JC
Some will say keep New Zealand the way it is which is secular but that does not necessarily mean it is the best way. New Zealand started off as a Christian country and what happen to keeping it the way it is?
Louise Hevacan
I agreed that the majority religion is Christian and that is the basis of our life in this country. The Prime Minister's remarks that we are neutral in this regard does not reflect our history or current circumstance. Yes, it is true there are other religious groups, but I feel the majority of people whether they practice religion or not follow the guidelines of christianity i.e. honest, reliable, loving and caring. The Prime Minister is playing with words and in effect insulting all New Zealanders.
Where are we heading?
I think Brian Tamaki is right that we observe Easter, Christmas day and what does 2007 stand for? The year that Christ was born 2007 years ago. This country needs saving from itself so we need a saviour. The politicians always brag how our government is building more prisons and increasing our police force, well that's means you're doing something wrong because we should be closing prisons down and sacking police because we don't need them we need to embrace
Christianity and its morals.
Derek (Auckland)
Hey, if some people want to follow the Destiny Church, fair enough, most do not. If some want to follow the "Jedi religion" fair enough too (why wasn't that recognised at the last census?). Religion is not going to help NZ politics when, for example, most Christians (at least those I have spoken to) believe war against Muslims is acceptable. What has democracy got to do with Christianity or any other minority belief? We do not want to end up like the USA where politicians use religious leverage for all sorts of reasons, including waging war. Keep it out of schools, politics and anywhere else where it can be used to "force" views upon everyone. As for Brian Tamaki, I think we all know why he's so pushy and its nothing to do with religion, it's just his vehicle for wealth, fame, power.
Deb
I'm confused, as I always have been with Brian Tamaki (it's the terrible black trenchcoat no doubt). He wants Parliament to follow his lead and what's that? Prey on people? Or was it pray for them? It's probably time for a review, but good luck covering everybody. And please don't lump me in with Brian Tamaki's brand of Christianity. He seems to be selling tickets to Heaven to people who can't really afford it. I think it's enough for me to love and to give thanks without a church or any kind of label, in fact more people could just try that for a start, we'd probably be a wee bit better off.
Leon
Destiny Church is making a stand and representing the majority of this country who confess to be Christians but are too scared to say anything. NZ was founded on Christian doctrine and accepted by Maori. NZ is a Godly nation ie: God defend NZ anthem. If we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it ie: many countries around the world who have allowed other religions into their country. This has caused fear in many people as a lot of religions speak of war in the name of God and terrorism and yet those are the religions which will be allowed into our country to take possession of land establish beliefs that are not our own.
AB in NZ
The ultimate evaluation of the premise can only lie with the individual. Be it that those that exercise "Judeo-Christian faith" or any other religious faith, may be instructed or "commanded" to exert influence on society to conform with their beliefs, it definitely should be done so with humility. The last thing society needs is more religious intolerance, based on the grave picture painted throughout history with that easel! Let people think for themselves & decide their own world view and keep religion out of politics. As for the "Bishop" as the trumpeter of God's cause, well if I derided him he would probably lap it up in an egocentric slather! He is likely to interpret it as "persecution" and or justification / evidence for his delusions in my view. He is an unpleasant distraction, from the integrity and genuineness of many good Christians.
Privacy of religious beliefs
Religion is a private matter and this is defended in our Bill of Rights. Church and State should be kept separate in NZ. Our courts have recognised this some time ago so that you no longer have to swear on the Bible if you so choose. Let the MP's get on with the daily business of running the country not having to utter religious mantras to a god that many may not believe in.
Mama Mia (Auckland)
It's incredible that any sane people can take a weirdo fundamentalist like the self-proclaimed "bishop" Brian Tamaki serious. Had he turned up 30-40 years ago he would definitely have been locked up in a mental asylum, where I also think he belongs.
Viv
Let's keep with tradition. I'm a 6th generation NZer and proud of it. We are becoming far too PC. Ever wonder why the million or so of NZers don't live at home? When we buy into a group, we take on that groups ethos, if you don't like it, get out. Too much energy is given to BT, who is there to make money and NZers are all too freely giving theirs (they consider his wealth over their needs and have bought into his ethos) to his cause, self empowerment. Wake up! Stick with the mother prayer.
Baz
I am surprised that people still believe in this Christian mumbo jumbo rubbish. Are we still living in the 14th century?
Amanda
I am a happy and well-behaved atheist, and so are many of my friends (I avoid associating too much with Christians because in my experience they are often so judgemental and hypocritical). I'm really glad this is not a Christian country, and am looking forward to the day when the parliamentary prayer is ditched and religion is out of NZ politics for good.
Warren Nash
Tenzin Chosang has said everything that I feel in my own heart about how I think New Zealand should be. An American President once said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Accept that everyone is striving for their own inner peace, to see their children grow, to accept that everyone has their own belief, and everyone deserves to be treated as an equal.
Stubbs
The only reason we are Christianised is because we were told to be. Not all of us believe in Easter or Xmas day for what it's being portrayed as, which has turned so commercialised, of course Jesus could do with a cell phone with blue tooth and a gig of memory.
Brian Tamaki, he is more about himself than anything else. People, stop giving him a podium to shout his hot air from. Jesus didn't die at the cross and say "oh I will be only doing this as long as your not gay or choose another religion to follow." We all believe there is only one God in heaven but we see him through different eyes.
Lexie
God of Nations suggests a God-fearing nation not necessarily a Christian one any more. Neutralise the parliamentary prayer to remove references to Christ but not God and it will be sweet. Everyone - except Brian - wins. I can't wait for TVNZ's 'This is Your Life of Brian!' Maybe John Cleese could present the leather-bound book.
Warren
Despite what people might like to say about our heritage, we can no longer claim to be a Christian nation, or even a morally focussed nation. Our social policy has recently made special niches for homosexuals and prostitutes etc, unnecessarily. Now we debate the prayer. Personally, as a fundamentalist Christian (i.e. I do believe the Bible word for word) I believe in the power of prayer. However I am not against religious tolerance. Yes I believe that Christianity has a monopoly on truth and heaven, but it's not up to us to enforce it. However, the more important question is; does taking religion out of Parliament constitute tolerance or discrimination. We have had a prayer for that long that it takes a big effort to change it and if we are willing to make that effort, doesn't that make us more anti-religion than anything else? Isn't it more tolerant to all religions to have religion represented? Even only 1? Also I notice that no Muslim, Bhuddist or Hindu country will ever include the word Jesus into any of their prayers. How is it tolerant to anyone (for whom the mixing as 'religion' is as offensive as outright opposition) to mix and match our God's, Enlightened ones, Shiva and Allah into one? I am offended if we decide to remove it, this is anti-religious. However I am more offended if all beliefs are insulted by their treatment as one. Praying to "all ascended beings" is plain insult.
Albert
Has anyone thought of this? Politicians want to do away with the prayer, yet want ban trading on Easter to stay. Let's be consistant. If the prayer is done away with, what about allowing trading on Easter? Make up your mind politicians and stop wasting taxpayer money on things that don't affect us at all. By the way, politics and religion do not mix.
Helen Lewis
NZ is a Christian country. It was founded by Christians and the Treaty was signed under One God, the God and father of Jesus Christ, and there is plenty of evidence concerning his birth, death and resurrection. As for science, it has not proven that we are naturally good, we do know what good is when we don't receive good treatment, but we are by instinct 'out for ourselves.' And who is your benchmark for goodness - Helen Clark? We as Christians must speak out against this design of the Labour party to remove God and any referral to Him from this nation. The government does not speak for me or my family when they make their rules that go against God and what He commands is right.
Tim (Helensville)
To me its a great prayer, and like our national anthem, its unmatched around the world. The last line of the prayer 'through Jesus Christ our Lord' is the bit that our Government doesn't like. I suspect a bit of coveting of the lofty title by our ambitious leaders. The only real solution for those offended by this awesome prayer would be for them to either make Jesus Christ Lord of their lives, or resign.
Stuart
Only the tiniest slice of human history has been lived in the shadow of Christianity, compared to the long evolutionary process that has found an advantage for us in the ability to think ethically. 2000 years ago there were no Christians, and by the next census it is likely that less that 50 per cent of the NZ population will claim to be so. Surely we should be looking to move the parliamentary prayer in a non-religious direction to reflect this trend. A secular society is the only responsible option for New Zealand. Everyone has an equal opportunity to contribute; the religious and non-religious meet in public as equals and must argue rationally without special pleadings for particular dogmas. Such a secular system guarantees the freedom of all religions and I would have thought that Mr Tamaki would have been keen on this (he should consider how things would be for him under an Islamic Caliphate). The various religions practised in New Zealand, each claim to be exclusively the One True Way, and they can't all be right. I contend that none of them are.
Chris O'Brien
So Helen Clarke wants to deny NZ's Christian heritage? That is interesting as at the end of 2006 at the Labour Party conference in Rotoura she publicly stated that the Labour Party comes out of a tradition of Methodism. How quickly she changes her tune. I guess it suited her at that time, but now we see the real Helen Clark. Keep up the good work Brian Tamaki, you one of few who has the guts to stand up and fight to acknowledge the values upon which this nation was built and the Christian source of them.
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