Maori affairs Q&A: Pita Sharples

Pita Sharples says race relations in New Zealand are excellent on a superficial level. Picture / Dean Purcell

Maori Affairs reporter Jon Stokes talked to Maori Party co-leader Pita Sharples about the vital issues for Maori. This is an edited transcript:

What is the essence of the Maori Party?

The Maori Party exists because there's a long-felt belief among Maori that we don't really have a voice in Parliament. The setting up of the party was triggered by the decision to legislate on the foreshore and seabed, which Maori interpreted as, "here we go again, but this time it's so blatant that we have to react". But it's important to realise that this is not just a one-issue party.

Maoridom exists throughout New Zealand in all strata of society. How are you going to ensure you speak for Maori?

You're quite right and it's foolish to think that we're all the same and think the same. But, generally, it is possible to gauge where Maori are at in terms of the aspirations they voice through their various organisations, their pursuits and the official bodies. You can see that they're all in the same direction. Basically, Maori want to achieve and do well in New Zealand without losing this thing called Maori.

Labour has been campaigning on the fact that it has achieved some substantial gains for Maori in the past four to six years, such as unemployment.

This has been a prosperous period for Australia and New Zealand. Our economy has flourished and with it employment. But when you look at the disparity that still exists between Maori and Pakeha, we're still really at square one.

There's a view which says that Maori need to take greater responsibility for some of the social ills they endure. What do you say to that?

I could not agree more. Maori have to take responsibility for those things. But it is about recognising where many Maori are at in society at this time. People are quite prepared to point out we're over-represented in prison. They're quite prepared to point out that our NCEA results are lower than others, and so on. What they have to point out with it, as well, is to see where those people sit on the socio-economic ladder of New Zealand society. So coupled with things like offending is some of the worst poverty in this country but also a real working-class attitude to life. So it is really hard to just say "improve, stop doing that".

You have to give the people some feeling that they're being respected. I remember after the Commonwealth Games in 1990 the whole country felt good, but Maori felt good, too, that we'd made a major part of the opening and closing ceremonies and it was talked about so positively. There are other wins we can have as well. We've got to have them, so people start believing in themselves again.

There would be few within Maoridom who would deny there are a number of individuals who have gained significantly because the treaty settlements process can be a long, complicated task.

That's right. But the beautiful thing is the claims process is a proper process and it is addressing grievances. At least 15 other countries have come to observe the manner of this process and they are saying, this is a very, very good process and I think it is, too. It is bringing out the stories, the history that is unknown and untold at this time, or known by only a few.

When I went to England I knew which statue was which in London. I knew about Sir Walter Raleigh, Sir Francis Drake, all those things. I was depressed that New Zealanders did not know about Te Whatuiapiti, who reigned supreme over Hawkes Bay his whole life. Now that history of Maori is not known, the movement of the tribes, the settlement patterns and things like that. It's like being denied your history. One of the things the claims are doing is bringing out these beautiful stories about intermarriage and settling of grievances in the old days and how that tribe became connected to that. The treaty process is actually revealing these histories and they take time.

There's a $1 billion fiscal envelope in terms of treaty settlements, which has stretched a bit because of interest. Would the party persist with that?

No, they can't settle it with $1 billion. It's nearly $1 billion now for the claims they've done already and they've still got hundreds to go. I don't know why people are so pained about this. This is what they say: "The process, it's got to finish." I want it finished because I'm sick of it being used negatively against Maori. But really it's a good process, it's bringing out New Zealand's history. Sure, it's costing a bit but a pittance compared with what was removed out of Maori ownership at that time.

How would you define race relations in New Zealand today?

I would say race relations in New Zealand are excellent on a superficial level and that they are good compared with many countries, but they have the potential to exclude Maori completely and that would cause major social disruption.

In what way?

If every waitress that was Maori walked out of the restaurant, or every Maori in the bank, or every Maori who drove a truck the country would be in trouble. But I don't think it would come to that, because we're here to keep the focus on. You can't just wipe out a people and that's what policies like Dr Brash's will do, because he won't accept that tangata whenua is a special relationship. If he won't accept that, then we are heading for a collision.

His argument is based around the fact that it is dangerous to have different policies based on one specific group and, after Orewa, the polls clearly demonstrated there was a strong level of support for his words.

Of course, because these people have been brought up monoculturally. If they were in Europe they would speak several languages, they would know different ways of celebrating life and mourning the dead and all of those kind of things.

But, in New Zealand there is this feeling that this is the Kiwi way. Well, there is no Kiwi way as far as Maori are concerned. Because we do do things differently. We're not brown Pakeha. Despite 200 years, Maori still want to be Maori. So that is the real difference.

What would be your key policy for the party?

To formulate a constitution where the concept of tangata whenua and the Treaty of Waitangi is firmly in place. That would be the main policy, to give Maori back the concept of tangata whenua. This would constitute a major win in Maori society.

What's non-negotiable for the Maori Party?

Getting rid of the seats would be not negotiable, getting rid of the treaty would be not negotiable, and not supporting the development of Te Reo Maori and the associated customs.

What does tino rangatiratanga mean?

Tino rangatiratanga means a chance to have a say and a respect for what you stand for. It's being able to be a fully fledged partner in the determination of New Zealand's future, instead of being told all the time where you fit.

Some sectors in Maoridom have a different interpretation of tino rangatiratanga - more of separate government.

When we take the voters, there are just under 400,000 of us, and half of us are married to non-Maori. It is very difficult to see how you can have two sets of Governments in this country. So Maori need to have a voice in whatever structures this country moves to in the future.

Why would Maori be entitled to any different treatment from, say, the Asian community or the Pacific Island community?

The Asian community is numbering quite a lot now, by the stroke of a pen. Someone has signed something and there they are. We've been here for more than 1000 years and we have a relationship with the land, spiritual and physical. We bring to New Zealand its special character and New Zealand has to celebrate that, because otherwise it is denying its own heritage.

There has been a concern that it's a negative thing for Maori to rely on Government support.

Yes, I would agree with that to a certain extent. But it's the way it's done. The Government should fund the survival and development of the Maori language because it is the indigenous language of this country, and only of this country. It has a responsibility.

The Government is saying we've given you Maori Television. No way. Maori Television came about because Maori in the field went to the Privy Council in London and fought that battle. They're saying they gave us development, kura kaupapa Maori and those things. I resent that. I knocked on the door of the education department and for years the Government fought me and wouldn't come to the party. Now we've got 63 schools, "hello, that's their schools now" and they did it.

Maori's gains have come from the blood and sweat of their own people and the early deaths of their own people and their tenacity to fight for their survival. The Government needs to put money in and give it to Maori because of their responsibility to the indigenous people. Imagine how you would feel as a New Zealander in 40 years' time if you were held responsible for letting the Maori language die. That would be criminal.