Former All Black Ian Jones played 105 games for the All Blacks, including 79 tests - he is now leading the All Blacks Experience tourism venture in central Auckland.
One of our All Black greats is now leading a trailblazing New Zealand tourism venture. Over lunch, Ian Jones discusses the power of storytelling and the black jersey, his new business move and how he and Robin Brooke’s famous rugby partnership continues with their sons.
Ian Jones has never watched a replay of the game, and certainly has not seen the Hollywood movie starring Morgan Freeman and Matt Damon. Jones likes to use the term “freaking” a fair bit and he freaking played in the game. He doesn’t need to see the film, Invictus, based on it.
But 30 years on, the 1995 Rugby World Cup final lives rent-free in Jones’ head.
“I still look back. I think about it often, about what we could have done differently,” says Jones, who won a hell of a lot more All Black games than he lost.
And then, some deeper consideration, some personal agonising.
“I’ve never really talked about this,” says Jones, pinpointing a pivotal moment in extra time in the final.
The All Blacks usually employed a successful tactic where first-five Andrew Mehrtens would hoist a 22m-line drop-kick high in the air, to the 10m line, where Jones, the 6ft 6 lanky lock, would usually have the pace, height and skills to retrieve the ball, and retain possession.
With minutes to go, the All Blacks went through the sequence, but they were steamed in the thin, Highveld air of Johannesburg. Jones and the forwards didn’t, couldn’t, make it properly to the ball.
South Africa won possession and ventured back down the field for the match-defining Joel Stransky dropkick. The Springboks won the final, and the World Cup, 15-12.
“If I had a chance to go back on that moment, I’d probably either have booted the ball down the middle of the paddock as far as we could, or made it a short ball. And then we can contest - it’s a bobble ball, scrap, scrap, scrap.
“The outcome may have been different. That’s the one thing I look back on from that game, man. I look back on that moment time and time again.”
Stories. Jones has many. About life growing up in Kamo, the Whangārei suburb that became his nickname. Of making the All Blacks. Of staying in the All Blacks. And life since the All Blacks.
Jones is such a good raconteur that we are talking for more than an hour over a pre-lunch beer before we even come to order food - several plates of dim sum and steamed buns - at Sky City’s Huami restaurant.
“Storytelling to me is crucial,” says Jones. “Everyone tells their story better than anyone else. Everyone nails their story and everyone’s journey is so different to everyone else’s.”
It’s his storytelling that has led us to lunch today. They are at the heart of his new and somewhat expanding role as the general manager of the All Blacks Experience.
Six months into the role, Jones and his team are changing things up at the Ngāi Tahu Tourism-operated venture in central Auckland, to help further share the mana and magic of the black jersey.
Jones consistently brings a personal touch to the role - after lunch, he scurries away to meet a corporate group - and now with the help of former players, a VIP experience has been launched in which groups of guests are personally hosted through the interactive rooms, into the replica All Blacks dressing room, and then down the tunnel to face an immersive haka from the All Blacks, and then the Black Ferns. All followed by a three-course meal.
Jones, the ‘Kamo Kid’ - as journalist Phil Gifford’s alter ego Loosehead Len originally coined him in the late 1980s, a nickname that the All Black dressing room adopted to differentiate him from the other Jones boy in the team, Michael - still has a fresh-faced, angelic-like appearance and charm, even today on the eve of his 58th birthday.
These days, his mates simply know him as Kamo, by way of his Northland heritage.
Another story. Jones lived on Fisher Terrace in Kamo, a street with an extraordinary claim to fame - among his neighbours were a young lad who would become an equestrian star (Blyth Tait), another who would play cricket for New Zealand (Bryan Young), and a young woman destined to play table tennis for her country (Angela Brackenridge).
Four kids, all of whom went on to represent New Zealand. All within a few doors of each other.
Jones puts that success down to another of their neighbours, Brian Maunsell - “Mr Maunsell” - putting the kids through their paces. Jones would have been about 10.
“He was the instigator of our training, our enjoyment, our play outside. We just thought it was normal.”
Maunsell had his own famous sporting pedigree - as a former New Zealand hockey representative and the fitness coach of the men’s hockey team which won gold at the 1976 Montreal Olympics.
He had adopted Arthur Lydiard’s famous training methods for both the men’s hockey team - and the kids on Fisher Terrace.
Maunsell built Jones’ aerobic base in the late 1970s. Half a century later, Jones’ love of fitness endures, and he remains as active as ever. Aside from his storied rugby career, he ocean swims, runs marathons, rides and is an Ironman competitor.
Tonight, even after a couple of lunchtime beers and with his birthday tomorrow, he will be in the pool with his mates for a 2.9km swim - 58 lengths to mark his milestone.
Jones’ career in the All Blacks - he played 105 games in total, including 79 test matches between 1989 and 1999 - spanned the amateur-to-professional crossover period.
He was an electrician when he first made the All Blacks. In those days, it was common for players to be lining up for a test match on Saturday and to be back at work on Monday, interacting with customers and fans.
Jones remembers taking a lot of time off as a sparky and having a very understanding boss, Ian Bradley. In the end, he made a call to resign because of the increasing time demands of being an All Black.
Becoming an All Black was “life-changing”, says Jones, “and not just for you”.
“It’s life-changing for families. Your family becomes an All Black. You know how proud your family, your friends, your teammates, your club become. It’s never just you or never just those 15 players playing.
“It’s everyone who’s been associated with your journey or in your life.
“And that’s why New Zealand’s so strong. And when New Zealand is behind any team - often the All Blacks - it’s freaking unbeatable. It’s a powerful force. As a small country, we have a superpower in that regard.”
Jones and Robin Brooke were a formidable force in the heart of the All Blacks scrum for the best part of a decade. They were a locking combination whose skills complemented one another.
Jones drops another amazing story.
He and Brooke’s legacies live on today, in the Takapuna rugby club’s under-85kg team, the Bombers. In the squad are their respective sons, Caleb Brooke and Flynn Jones. Both locks.
“They trained together last night,” says Jones.
Robin Brooke is an assistant coach of the team; Ian Jones now a proud dad on the sideline.
“We expect our kids to be better than us, right?” says Jones. “That’s what you want. That’s how you get evolution, right? That’s how you evolve.”
He then adds with a grin: “They won’t be because they’re not as tough as us but still... it’s crazy!”
Jones doesn’t think All Blacks are naturally born.
For sure, there are naturally gifted players who have a drive and a desire to succeed and they become superstars, he says.
“We should absolutely hero those people but then there’s a whole raft of other people, including Ian Jones, including Sean Fitzpatrick, including Richie McCaw who work hard, chase this incredible dream and it gets them to where they want to be.”
Jones shot up in height in the third form at secondary school. Until then, he was hanging out in the backs or at number 8.
He first played for the All Blacks in 1989, aged 22, in a tour match against Cardiff. It inspired him to aim for a test jersey - that happened the following year, against Scotland at Carisbrook. He scored a try on his test debut. In his 50th test, against the same opposition at the same ground, he scored a try in almost the identical spot.
Jones believes in omens. In 1990, before a third test ‘dead-rubber’ match against Australia, one of the lights in the Athletic Park dressing room flickered out as the All Blacks prepared to run on to the field.
“Uh-oh,” Jones thought.
Indeed. The All Blacks lost the match, and while they already had the series in the bag, that victory was enough to give the Wallabies a belief that they could beat the men in black. A year later, Australia won the World Cup, beating the All Blacks on the way to the final.
But while the rare losses can sometimes feature heavily in memories, the victories stand out as well. Jones was part of the team that won the first-ever test series in South Africa; he played in the incredible 1996 test at Athletic Park against Australia, a near-faultless performance in atrocious conditions.
Look at the starting XV of that game: Christian Cullen, Jeff Wilson, Frank Bunce, Walter Little, Jonah Lomu, Andrew Mehrtens, Justin Marshall, Zinzan Brooke, Josh Kronfeld, Ian Jones, Robin Brooke, Michael Jones, Olo Brown, Sean Fitzpatrick and Craig Dowd. It will remain one of life’s greatest mysteries how that legendary line-up did not win a World Cup.
Jones has another perspective. While he used to define winning by the numbers on the scoreboard, that evolved over time into teamwork on the field and future comradeship.
“The funny thing about being an All Black and I love tradition, but tradition can also be a noose. The tradition of winning every game is powerful for the All Blacks. It’s a driver for the All Blacks and it kind of sets us apart, but far out, it’s unrealistic.”
Winning for Jones is now about fostering the friendships he made off the field, about building the All Blacks Experience into a world-class attraction for international and domestic visitors. Visitor numbers are set to soar as tourism fully bounces back after the Covid pandemic, and as the International Convention Centre opens in February next year.
And winning for Jones also revolves around family.
He is married to Janine, a nurse, and all three of their children, Flynn, Mia and Noah, are now in their 20s.
Noah works for Mike King’s I am Hope charity organisation, Mia is a primary school teacher who will soon be off on her OE, and Flynn is teaching te reo. His father has been a willing student, part of a deeper connection that Jones has made to his Māori heritage, and to the South Island iwi Ngāi Tahu on his mother’s side.
“I always knew my Ngāi Tahu roots and grew up in an age that you were never discouraged but never encouraged, if you know what I mean? It was the era we grew up in.”
“I lived up in Whangārei, so a long way away from my mother’s family, and I was also very proud of my Scottish heritage on my father’s side - that was more accessible because we were living, breathing it every day.”
He is full of admiration for the younger generation of New Zealanders.
“We have amazing young New Zealanders in the country who, if we support, back and listen to them, will change the fricking world.
“I look at my kids and their friends. They are really empathetic, tolerable to change, to diversity and have this amazing vision for our world. We - for me anyway, and my wife - live in their world.”
Jones and his wife give back to their community, through a monthly community kitchen, at Rosmini College. It’s called Eddie’s Meals, in reference to his swim squad, Eddie’s Eels.
Jones has said his wife has made him a better person. “In her role, she sees the impact of loneliness and isolation on people. This motivated us to try and make a difference. I believe everyone needs to do what they can to help others – this is what we can offer as a family."
Jones looks back on his All Black career with pride, but he does ask himself, did he enjoy the moments then, as much as he does now?
“You’re always striving to stay on the team, to be the best, to improve. I often looked back and thought, ‘Did I enjoy all of those moments?’
“At the time, I think I probably did, but maybe I could have enjoyed the test match moments more. Because you played the game and then it was just on to the next one or getting back to the drawing board.
“I was so obsessed with improving, with staying in the team, with being an All Black.
“But that’s a 58-year-old man looking back at a 28-year-old boy. When you live in this All Black bubble, all you think about what you’re doing is absolutely right.
“You 100% believe in what you’re doing. You believe everything you do is correct in the way you do it, but that doesn’t mean it is. It’s good to look back.”
Two weeks ago, Jones hosted a VIP evening for media, alongside Sir John Kirwan, Terry Wright, and one of his 1995 World Cup final teammates, Josh Kronfeld. The banter was raw and real, from tales of sitting as meek-and-mild debutants in the dressing room, to becoming senior members of New Zealand’s most famous sporting team.
“I want players to be able to kind of share their journey, share their story, bring their journey to life, because my story will be so different to John Kirwan’s or to Terry Wright’s, or to Josh Kronfeld’s or to Robin Brooke’s,” says Jones.
“That is storytelling - it will resonate with people out there.
“I want young girls or boys to see themselves - that when you’re a young kid growing up in a small town, and you see another person from a small town become an All Black. You go, ‘Well, frick, I can become an All Black or a Black Fern’.”
Editor-at-Large Shayne Currie is one of New Zealand’s most experienced senior journalists and media leaders. He has held executive and senior editorial roles at NZME, including Managing Editor, NZ Herald Editor and Herald on Sunday Editor. As well as a weekly media column, he has a regular interview series featuring noteworthy and leading New Zealanders including Wayne Brown, Ruby Tui, Paddy Gower, Dame Kiri Te Kanawa, Scotty Stevenson, Chlöe Swarbrick, Simon Power, Josh and Helen Emett, Sir Ian Taylor, David Kirk, Sir Ashley Bloomfield, Paul Henry, Simon Barnett, Sophie Moloney, Brian and Hannah Tamaki, Sir Grahame Sydney, David Lomas, Carrie Hurihanganui, Sir Russell Coutts, Steven O’Meagher, Juliet Peterson, Brendan Lindsay, Tony Astle, Anna Mowbray and David Higgins.
Inside the executive shake-ups at multiple media firms; TV star's new rugby podcast.