KEY POINTS:
Police Minister Annette King will seek an assurance from Police Commissioner Howard Broad that the police policy on high speed chases is working after another fatal crash following a pursuit.
This forum debate has now closed. Here is a selection of your views on the topic.
Neroni Mack
Since when have you ever heard of Police Cars involved in a car crash. Once in a blue moon I bet. The Police go through advanced driving training and also when you here the siren you're suppose to make way anyway. I hope next time you are in a serious car crash or mugged at knife point, the police jump on their pedal bikes and do a top speed of 40km p/h and stop over at starbucks before coming to the rescue. I have no sympathy for the young man. He chose to run. He chose to die.
A Austin (Taupo)
The police order someone to pullover - for whatever reason. They speed off and the police have to follow. They crash and hopefully just kill themselves but maybe they survive and take out innocent people. The scumbag running away knows they are in the wrong, they know the risks of a major accident are significant, they don't give even the slightest consideration for the safety of others and yet somehow this is all the fault of the police. Yeah Right.
Craig from Auckland
While I fully agree with the Police action taken against fleeing cars, I must stop to think about the greater picture. NZ Police do not have the right to kill anyone unless it is to save another person (more or less). It is well known that Police chases more often than not end in a crash. Perhaps by utilising other techniques the Police could avoid creating immense danger to local public. Catching the said crim after chasing him through several neighbourhoods achieves an arrest. Same thing could be done if police attended burglaries promptly. Except then why would anyone join the police!
Kel
It's true, cops are going to get blamed no matter what they do. but think, is it safer to have one lunatic on the road driving at ridiculous speeds, or 3 or 4 lunatics. With the technology we have today our great coppers should be able to find someone without having to chase them or ram them. its like... "we chase them because they are running". Ooooh yay. We could always bring in martial law I suppose. Then we could show the world our "military intelligence". Which is in fact just as smart as my cellphone! Back on topic, police will be blamed either way, maybe use their resources getting smarter cops that can find people after the fact instead of cops that know how to drive quickly and blame someone else for it.
Candy Priano (California)
Issues that need to be addressed: 1. All Drivers who flee a. should not be allowed to make bail because they are a flight risk, b. should not be allowed to make plea-bargain deals for eluding officers, should be required to serve mandatory prison time for the full sentence, and d. should be required to pay a mandatory fine before being released from jail/prison. This fine will be in an amount larger than fines for traffic violations or driving with a suspended license or no license at all. Parents of minors should be required to pay this fine immediately or go to jail until the fine is paid. Monies collected will be used to build state-of-the-art pursuit training tracks for officers. 2. Officers can only pursue violent felons, Amber Alert suspects or drivers posing an immediate threat to public safety. 3. An independent investigative team (comprised of officers from other agencies, victims' advocates and non-law enforcement professionals) is needed to review all police vehicular pursuits ending in death or injury. All should agree that this component of Kristie's Law is a win-win situation. With accountability comes trust. 4. Law enforcement agencies (public entities) must be held accountable to innocent victims of pursuit if officers failed to follow their pursuit policy. It "shocks the conscience" to learn that many law enforcement agencies are not held accountable when officers fail to follow their pursuit policy. My background: I am the mother of an innocent victim of a non-policy police chase. I have so much to say on this subject since I have done research on it for the past four years. There is no doubt that she would be alive today if the driver had not fled, but just as true, the outcome of this chase had as much to do with the actions and decisions of the officers as with those of the driver.
Tupac
ad results of police pursuits are solely the responsibility of those who choose to flee. Try as you will, you cannot impute ill fortune upon law enforcement. Run if you like but the results must attach to those who try to escape.
Rex Hapimana
I'm not a fan of police chases because I believe the human life is more important than the solving of a crime, but I understand the predicament. I do have 2 questions: 1) What do the police do when they've caught up to a fleeing motorist at 160+ km/h? Run them off the road? That surely would result in the death of at least 1 if not both parties. And assuming the Police have caught up to this speeding car, they're now on the wrong side of the road! 2) In this case the boy died tragically. Obviously, the police will not be prosecuted. But what if it was the policeman who died? Should the boy be prosecuted? I mean he didn't try to cause any harm to the police and in fact was doing the very opposite-he was trying to get away from them. It seems he shouldn't be prosecuted either...but what's the bet he would be! I don't know of any police who have died in chases so I guess we'll have to wait on that one...because with the current policy it inevitably will happen.
DJF Auckland
If the police were allowed to do their job properly in these pursuits, this death may not have happened. The end result of any pursuit must be that the fleeing driver is pursued until the car is stopped & the occupant detained. Once widely known that the police never give up a chase, I believe a lot of these pursuits simply wouldn't happen..
Derek
If you run from the police you should be forced to spend 3 years of Saturdays helping to dig the tunnels for the underground railways that Auckland desperately needs. Put the runaways in ye olde fashioned stocks every Saturday for a year. Ensure the stocks are placed in an area where people could say "we didn't see what was going on". Allow the police to shoot at the fleeing offender. People in "authority" that complain about police trying to catch offenders must spend equal amount of time with offenders so that they can offer
counselling.
Michael
Just add a charge to the drivers of the cars being chased. If you make the cops chase you, no matter what your reason or age, you will get another 10 years prison, no parole, immediately. Simple aye.
Tommo (Hibiscus coast)
The police have to keep up their chases.If the offender runs or drives away they have to know they will be chased or they will just break the law more and more.If they are dumb enough to flee they deserve all they get even if it is loss of life.No brain no pain.We must support those whose job it is to uphold the law.
Albert
If anyone had stopped when asked by the police, it is quite likely he/she is a law abidding citizen with nothing to hide. if tries to ran away, whether he/she manages to escape, it is highly likely that he/she has something to hide and will commit offences again, again and again, and be a liability to the society. I don't mean to be unkind, but in this instance, there is one liability less in our kind society - cost of hunting him down (had he escaped alive), high possibility of innocent parties getting hurt and another offence being committed, cost of legal aid and putting him behind bars when he gets caught, etc. etc. etc.
Fred
Perhaps the most significant issue involved here is the speed involved and the experience of the driver. I believe that the licencing age should be increased to 18, and then a limited power licence should be held for at least 2 years while those young drivers learn to control a vehicle. After that any dangerous driving convictions or DUI convictions have a car confiscation penalty along with any other penalties.
Kirstin Hall
I find that we are such a hypocritical country when it comes to our Police force and these car chases. If people learnt the simple lesson to stop when they are asked, we wouldn't be confronted with these issues. If the police had not have taken chase after the car and the person was hurt or worse - killed an innocent party, we would then be throwing knifes at the police for not stopping the person. But, but when they do and something happens because of the idiotic behaviour of the offender, we slam the police for taking chase in the first place.Tell me - how can they win? I am sure we will find that the police want these car chases to end as quickly and without harm to anyone but it seems we are very quick to lash out. Everyone seems to forget the idiot that didn't stop in the first place. It's like hiding when you are little because you stole a lolly or something, you wouldn't have to hide (or run in these cases) if you hadn't done anything wrong in the first place! It's about time we made the offenders responsible for the stupid, reckless behaviour instead of poking the blame stick at those who serve to protect.
Stace (Waitakere, knew the driver)
I imagine Michael was scared of being pulled over once he saw the coppas so he thought like many others would I am sure, "I can get away", Personally I feel that Police should not provoke a high speed chase in any circumstances, open your eyes, take the number plate and investigate instead of putting not only your own life but people of the communities lives at risk.
Jg
Why must police drive at high speed to incidents? I bet JM you would be the first to complain if they got stuck in traffic on the way to your home invasion or if there was an offender with a gun wandering your street. Lets face it, Police don't initiate pursuits, offenders do and they deserve higher penalties. I'm sick of all this molly coddling of criminals when they hurt themselves fleeing police. Nobody forces them to run!
Paul (Tauranga)
Until we have a situation where drivers acting criminally know they will be pursued until they are captured regardless of consequences, then they will continue to endeavor to evade capture by speeding away and either killing themselves or others. The current policy of abandoning pursuits should itself be abandoned. Yes there may be a short-term cost but long-term there will be saver roads and a lot less people willing to risk your life or my life because they think they may escape.
Graeme
It seems that the Police policy of discontinuing the chase when the fleeing driver is becoming too dangerous has backfired - too many of these drivers seem to think that if they reach this threshold of stupidity they will get away without ever being caught. This perception needs to change - make sure they are caught - and publicise the Police success stories. Until perceptions change these dopey drivers will continue to think that to run is the easy option.
Peter
In response to JM's comments: I believe that it would be equally dangerous if the government were to stop the police or other emergency services from speeding to incidents, such as accidents, intruders within your home or criminals that are fleeing the scene of a crime. It is my understanding that an Emergency vehicle may only speed if attending such an incident and that is rightly so. For example, if you are trapped in your car after an accident, do you honestly want the Police, Fire and Ambulance to just travel at the speed limit when minutes and seconds often count? The same goes for other emergencies such as a home invasion situation or attending an armed robbery. However, this thread is not about the Police acting like boy racers, it is whether they should have chased someone who was fleeing the scene of a accident. And in my opinion that is what the public expects them to do regardless of what the politicians may like. This accident was not caused by the police, but by the selfish and stupid actions of one young man who is now dead. Fortunately he did not injure any innocent people with his actions, which is the only positive to come from this tragedy.
SB
Why is this even an issue? Yet another pointless farce for the government to waste effort, time and money on instead of focusing on the real issues that plague our society. And I am sick of this constant police-bashing from the media. Give them a break guys, they are just doing their job.
Clara Harrison
I don't think the Police should be hounded for doing their job. If a person chooses to run from the police after stopping/ failing to stop and then dies it is their own fault. Too many people think it is a game to run from the police, they think they will win but no one wins because at the end of the day someone always gets hurt. They have no respect for the law and certainly no respect for life. This young man chose to run and his consequence was death, harsh lesson to learn but at least he is off our roads so he won't injure or kill a member of my family or yours. We are all responsible for our own actions, it is about time these young/ not so young got this through their heads.
Michelle (North shore)
Its the drivers fault for bolting in the first place. If the Police follow a bleeding heart liberal policy of not pursuing those who run, all that will do is encourage others to run from them - outcome being an increase in speeders endangering the public. Accidents will happen, this is a fact. But lay the blame squarely where it belongs - on those who run. Keep up the good work Boys/Girls in Blue - you still have a few supporters!
Ollie
No blame should rest on the police, they are just trying to do their job. I wish the media would leave them alone.
Kathy
No sympathy for the young man. He ran from the Police. When being asked to stop by the Police that means stop, not "Well, I will stop if I can be bothered". It is 100 per cent the young man's fault. He's lucky his is the only victim.
Arron
So Annette King is seeking an assurance from the commissioner that the police policy on high speed chases is working? Can I, as a member of public, ask for an assurance from Annette King that her government's bleeding heart, softly softly, quiet diplomacy on crime policy is working? Because it doesn't look like it from this end. It is time the government put in place laws to punish the scumbags out their instead of trying to stop the police doing their job.
Murray
The Police should not be constrained unless there is clear evidence that the public are endangered by the pursuit. The safety of the person or persons in the car trying to outrun or evade the Police should not by a factor in the decision making. Boy racers, unlicensed and disqualified drivers are a bane on our society and road safety. They deserve everything that they bring upon themselves. Those who ride with them need to learn better judgment and from the tragedies that have befallen others.
J M
Why is it so necessary for the police to drive at such excessive speeds on the way to an 'incident' especially in built up areas? Average Joe citizen would lose their license, car confiscated a hefty fine and even jail for attempting the same. The risk the police pose traveling at such high speeds to innocent road users and pedestrians far out weigh any benefits of time in catching an offender or assistance in the case of an accident. The biggest offending 'boy racers' are our own police! Its time it stopped.
Rat
Not only should the Police not back off from chases, but they should start employing a more hard-line approach. The more overly PC this country becomes, the more the criminals are catered to and law-abiding citizens put in danger. People who are stupid enough to run from the Police deserve whatever it takes to bring them down. Even if that means death, the death of a brainless criminal is preferable to that of any innocent parties.
Peter
It is extremely unfortunate that the young man died whilst escaping from the Police. However, what very few people have commented on is the fact that this driver is disqualified from driving due to a prior drink driving conviction only 2 or so months earlier. And he was running from the Police after having an accident after drink driving yet again.
I believe that the Police are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to these sorts of accidents. We the public have an expectation that the police will pursue and catch criminals as this young man was. However, as what often happens we also condemn them if it results in a accident. I believe that we have to remember that it was the decision of this young man to drink and drive and to evade the Police after having an accident. These were decisions made by this young man and the end result should also lay squarely on his shoulders as well, not the Police. It is time that people start taking personal responsibility of their actions and not blaming an organisation that is there to keep the Public safe from this type of person.
Alan Wilkinson
Not many constructive comments - just the usual "don't blame the police" defensiveness. That ignores the real problems of innocent people getting killed whether other road users or passengers. The objective must be to control and defuse the situation. Starting then aborting a chase does neither - the situation has been escalated and then abandoned in an out of control condition. Both psychological and technical experts should be looking for the best solutions. Most amateur opinion will be pretty useless.
Paula
If he had stopped he would be alive....end of story! Heres hoping that the family and friends will learn from this tragedy and not go on an anti-police rant via the media. He was stupid and paid dearly for his actions!
Hone
The installation of G.P.S-global positioning systems in all frontline patrol vehicles would be a great move towards ensuring police accountability in regards to vehicle pursuits. It would act in much the same way as 'black boxes' on aircrafts, providing a tool for insights into the possible causes and prove or disprove the police officer's version of events.Given the buying power of the police department and the lowering of technology costs, this could easily be implemented if there was a willingness to do so by the police service.
Gary
If you run or drive away from the Police once they have signalled for you to stop, then whatever happens is your own fault. Whilst I have sympathy for the families that lose loved ones etc, I have no time nor sympathy for people that break the law and disobey the legal request by a police officer to stop. If the police were told not to chase or try and stop people, crime would increase if you knew that you wouldn't get chased. The police have a hard enough job and the fingers in this case should not be pointed at them.
Concerned taxpayer
The way I see it, you break the law, your rights as a law abiding citizen of this country is forfeited because you have in your choice made a decision that has an adverse effect on society as a whole. Its a sad case when a young person dies on the road but what if it was your family on the line because someone decided to break the law and you paid the price.Again the spo light has been placed on Police to explain why and how they do their job. I see no credit ever given to the Police for the hard job they do in order for us to do our daily jobs in a peaceful environment. Give them their due and the respect they deserve and also the criticism when they deserve it. Lets see the whole picture. I won't repeat what others have already said but when the laws of this country seems to protect criminals more than law abiding citizens who pay their taxes, something gotta be wrong.
Patrick Rossiter
Once again it appears that the police will be painted as villains because a young man killed himself by racing away from a legitimate query by police. The young man owned a car he had been advised not to purchase, which he could not control in whatever state he was in at the time. Plainly the young man proved himself incapable of making rational decisions at a number of stages in this sorry saga. The hysteria over "police chases" only convinces more young men that if they drive fast enough the "chase" will be abandoned as unsafe. Thus in their twisted logic, if they drive fast enough to be unsafe, they will "get away", because they all believe themselves to be better drivers than anyone else. Thankfully the young man did not injure any innocent party, but that was simply luck, no credit to him at all. Frankly, this sort of young man is just the kind of driver that should not be permitted to drive at all. The policy on "police chases" should be that if a car races off from a well marked police car, the chase should be followed to its conclusion: the apprehension and incarceration without bail of the offender, and the seizure and destruction (without compensation) of the vehicle. Only then will young people get the message: racing away from a police query is stupidity and will not be accepted under any circumstances. Only when they get this message will the other users of the road be safe from them.
Kevin Burton
I think the 'fingerpointers' are barking up the wrong tree. If they point the finger at police all the time for chases they are more likely to abandon chases. The result: more drivers doing a high speed runner. The NZ police should be trained in the art of blocking/ramming the offending vehicle. So what if it writes off a cop car,They cost less to replace than the months of medical treatment or the trauma of someone innocent dying. Another deterrent is if the driver does a runner, and if the car is not stolen then take the offender and his car to the crushing machine and while he watches, crush his car with all his flash mags, stereo gear and anything else he might have in it at the time. Insurance wont pay out on them and they will still have the problem of sorting things out with the finance companies. The responsibility for the high speed chase deaths need to be where it lies - with the driver of the running vehicle, if they die they deserve it, If they kill someone make the sentence what it is murder and stop blaming the police for the deaths! I was recently in Tasmania for 10 days..They had no boy racer problesm cos they have a hard line on it, The slightest 'boy racer' act gets the car impounded and the drivers licence gone for 28 days. The young people know it and therefore done break the law. Its so simple, I hear the police band on a Fri Sat night and they have huge groups of youth drag racing and doing burnouts, Why not close all the roads in the location they are doing it and impound every persons car whether they are a participant or a bystander. They are involved in the event so they are accessory to it. The 'peoples rights' groups should be told to pull their heads in, they say an offender has rights. Why when they take away others 'rights' to be safe.
Lasela Timu-Poe
My view is everybody have to obey the law. If you have to stop you have to stop as simple as that.
Forrestnz
There needs to have a law change so that any idiot that runs from the police automatically gains a 1 year jail sentence. No exemptions ,no long draw out court cases, in prison today! At the moment it is worth trying to out run the police as the offence is just a slap on the wrist if you ever get caught. These idiots do not care about killing innocent others in the process of escaping the police.
Rex
No matter what is done, the poor police will be blamed again and again. So where to from here? Well, all police should have all the powers to protect themselves and apprehend criminals / law breakers. Even if it means continuing chases in extreme conditions. After all, some one needs to protect the poor innocent law abiding people.
Andy
Obviously, the Police must continue to pursue, even if the suspect flees at high speed. Otherwise, it sends a message to the criminal community that they can escape justice merely by stomping on the accelerator. In this most recent case, the only person that should be blamed for the hi-speed chase and subsequent death is the driver of the fleeing vehicle. He would be alive today if he politely pulled over when the Police asked him to. Instead, he chose to drive away at dangerous speeds, placing everyone in peril of their lives. In many ways it is a good thing that he is no longer a menace on our roadways.
John
While I'm not a fan of tasers or heavy-handed policing, in the matter of the pursuit of idiots the police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The only person to blame for the death in New Plymouth, irrespective of police pursuit or not, was the driver himself and the fact he only killed himself is something we should be thankful for.
Chris Barr
If the police are not allowed to chase people who are committing crimes then how are fleeing criminals going to be caught? The only ones to blame for deaths during police chases are the criminals who are running in the first place.
