Editorial Stylist Matt Benns On The Culture Of Collaboration & What It’s Really Like Working With Charli XCX

An intimate conversation between renowned stylist Matt Benns and Rats In The Gutter co-hosts comedian Johanna Cosgrove and author Samuel Te Kani.

My cheeks hurt from laughing. Or maybe it’s from smiling.

It’s hard not to beam with pride hearing how a boy who once attended Swanson Primary School in West Auckland has gone on to forge relationships with some of the biggest names in fashion and music.

I wasn’t alone in this sentiment, either, given the sea of wide-smiling faces present at Ponsonby’s Goblin bar on Sunday, soaking up every word from editorial stylist Matt Benns, as interviewed by Rats In The Gutter podcast co-hosts Johanna Cosgrove and Samuel Te Kani (who really delivered the hilarity).

Despite the glaring sunshine outside, Goblin commanded its own edgy mood, and climbing the steps to the bar felt like stepping into an entirely different universe.

The lights were so dim it took my eyes time to adjust. Striking imagery, edits and video clips of Matt’s work were beamed to one of the many screens situated around the bar, reflecting off the oversized disco balls that hung overhead.

It’s been two years since Matt was last in Aotearoa. His most recent visit mixed business and pleasure as he toured with Charli XCX and her team on the Laneway circuit, interspersed with days spent lounging by the beach or catching up with friends and family.

Throughout Matt’s illustrious career, he’s collaborated with stylists, photographers, models (and musicians) across the globe. He counts esteemed photographer and Viva contributor Thistle Brown as a friend.

But for someone who has rubbed shoulders with some of the biggest names in both creative and celebrity circles, Matt is surprisingly grounded.

He wastes no time to thank the group for spending their Sunday evening with him, gathered to learn more about his creative process, hear the stories behind some of the most famous campaigns and covers he’s worked on, and tips on how to recreate three iconic hair looks.

Below, a recap of Matt’s conversation, as hosted by the team at Stephen Marr and Goblin, supported by Viva, K18 Hair, Laurent Perrier Champagne and Glenfiddich whisky.

Rats In The Gutter: Let’s start at the very beginning. Who are you?

Matt Benns: I’m Matt. I grew up in West Auckland, and started hairdressing when I was 17, and started working with Stephen [Marr] when I was 20, and stayed until 26. Then decided that I wanted to travel and have this next part of my career.

RITG: Can you describe what you do as an editorial hairstylist? That’s your remit, right?

MB: I think so. For me, what I do is such an editorial science. It’s so broad. I do so many things – I work with beauty brands like Clinique or Glossier. Then I shift to fashion, working and collaborating with other magazines, like ID or Dazed. As well as working with musicians, like Lorde or Kalela.

RITG: That’s also another different sort of element of care, styling in the way that you’re creating this identity for someone. Throughout their release of music and the like. You kind of want to create these looks that are recognisable and very memorable. What’s the difference between working on an editorial versus working with an artist?

RITG: You’ve been doing a lot of work with artists recently, including Charli XCX at Laneway.

MB: Recently, yes. I also came home to shoot a story, which is actually quite special to me, because of what’s happening with the climate in New Zealand at the moment, particularly with Māori. We did this really beautiful story for Dazed magazine where we shot like 35 non-models. And we shot them all throughout the North Island. And they’re sort of representations of where they hang out, riding horses, swimming in the rivers or on the beach. And it was, yeah, felt really good to do that. We shot it with Erika Kamano, a Japanese photographer whose work is really beautiful. She’s one of my favourite photographers. I think the way she’s going to visualise New Zealand’s landscape is going to be stunning.

RITG: What’s the lead-in time for a project like that, in terms of technically arranging things and the vision?

MB: For that project in particular, the conversation started five weeks ago, and then it was the organisation of getting everyone to New Zealand, getting clothing, getting concept and finding people that we wanted to work with, what we wanted to shoot. Then there’s the process of getting advertisers to agree to some of it, and getting the magazines to believe in the pitch, too. Yes, there’s, like, a lot of things that take a while.

RITG: What has it been like being a New Zealander, living and thriving overseas?

MB: It’s really its had its ups and downs. I’m not gonna lie. I think initially, when I first moved to New York I really struggled. It was hard trying to figure out where I sat in the sphere of millions of people. I knew a handful of people, but I didn’t really know anyone in the industry. It was basically me just cold emailing a bunch of agents and looking at people’s work that I really admired and was like, I want to be like this person. I finally started working with a hairstylist named Tamara McNaughton. Then Jawara, and became his first assistant. I was with him for about three years.

RITG: Can you talk to that a little bit more?

MB: I was so drawn to Jawara because what he created was so beautiful. He comes from New York, but has Jamaican heritage. He’s the sweetest human being in the world, and also very inspiring and very encouraging of your own product. Whereas sometimes I think when you start assisting someone, that person can sometimes be quite overwhelming and not allow you to spread your wings. But he was very encouraging for everyone on our team.

RITG: What was it like as his assistant?

MB: You know, I made mistakes. I like burnt hair. I f***ed up wigs. I mean, particularly lace [front wigs]. I cut too much off.

RITG: There’s 17 bald girls out there right now! It sounds really collaborative, though?

MB: Yeah, it was collaborative. It was his vision. But it was up to everyone else in the team to build this visual of what he wanted to create. He’s working on this book, and we did this really incredible sculpture of braids on the shape of the continent of Africa on this woman’s head. It just like, unintentionally looked like that. It’s of my favourite images, I think Tyler Mitchell shot that. I actually think this book is coming up really shortly. It’s been like five years of contributing to this book.

RITG: What are some of the differences between working here in New Zealand versus working in the UK or the US? Is it easier over here?

MB: The biggest difference for me is that all those other places are so much more populated. The level of consumerism is so much more intense. Sometimes you see a set that’s built just for the shoot and then completely dismantled and trashed. Whereas, I think being from New Zealand is also an advantage – our networks and our communities are a lot smaller, so we actually get to integrate and meet a lot more of our peers and situations like this a lot more. In the States, it’s a little bit harder to try and collaborate because everyone is everywhere.

RITG: Do you feel like that is a common piece of feedback about New Zealand creatives that we can do many things at once, because we have to?

MB: No one’s siloed. Whereas in the States or in Europe, everybody has a job. There’s a person that only does this thing, and they will only do that job.

RITG: Is there a skill in particular that was amazing for you to learn?

MB: When I was working with Jawara, I had never worked with Black hair before. I didn’t know what I was doing, and so that’s why I was keen to learn and to understand the culture of hair because it is something so personal and so spiritual that you have to respect it. It’s also a texture that is actually quite easy to work with once you know what you’re doing. And I think some people feel a little bit overwhelmed by it but you have to start somewhere. I learned that. I learned about that beauty shop culture.

RITG: Can you give us an example?

MB: Beauty shop culture is really massive overseas. Going into your local beauty store and meeting everybody, and searching for the right type of hair, it’s a thing.

RITG: We don’t really have that, or any equivalent, do we?

MB: I tried to search for it when I have been home and you can find places like that in Henderson. But we don’t really have a beauty shop situation where you kind of go hang out.

RITG: How did you break into that beauty shop culture?

MB: I kind of had to be an observer for a long time, until I was welcomed into the space. In saying that, I’ve never felt unwelcome. But it was about just watching and before I could do anything. As soon as you touch someone’s hair, they kind of know that you don’t know what you’re doing. I understand it because as a child, a lot of these girls grew up with their mum doing their hair, braiding hair in front of the TV. There’s sanctity around that time together.

RITG: How did you go from being the first assistant to now being on demand?

MB: Being on someone’s team, you have security and the calibre of people they collaborate with. But while I was working, I also created my own relationships within those groups of people, like making friends with the photo assistants. And once I made the decision, Jawara and I sat down and he was like, I think it’s time that you move on, that you do your own thing. We decided there would be an end date after the European fashion circuit. And during that time, I had meetings with agents and kind of shopped around. He also helped guide me on who I should speak to. Three months after I left him, I was signed to my current agency – CLM – an agency based in London that looks after the European sector, and then New York looks after North America.

RITG: How soon after signing on did working start coming in? Was that a scary time for you, waiting?

MB: It was because I didn’t have my own clients at that time. I didn’t have brands to work with. It was really scary. It was very quiet for the first, sort of, like two years, I was kind of just scraping by, doing a lot of e-commerce. After a period, people started trusting me, and inviting me to be part of their creative groups. I can’t talk more about the importance of these people that you meet. You want to try and support them as much as you can, because they’re going to come back and support you also. That’s what I get with Thistle [Brown], it’s one of the relationships I really treasure. We all respect each other’s creative endeavours, and we’re all extremely proud of each other. It’s like such a privilege to be able to work with my friends and be in a space where I feel confident and comfortable, to put myself out there creatively and try something new. To hear them say: “That’s dope”. I need to hear that sometimes, because when you put your work out there it’s a little scary, because people always have an opinion.

RITG: I’m hearing that having a creative cohort is the most important thing in your line of work. What I love about you, Matt, is that you’ve just, you’ve got the people around you, but you do have the skill and the knowledge and the craft to also then back it up. So when people are talking about you, they’re going to be saying: “Benns is an angel, I loved working with him and look at his f***ing work.” It’s amazing.

RITG: And if they’re not, they’re blind. You have to have a few haters, though, otherwise, you know you’re not landing!

RITG: I spent yesterday watching beautiful clips of drag queens trying to recreate Charli’s look. How surreal is it to see your work replicated in this way?

MB: It feels really exciting. It feels exciting because people get it. I would be a little bit worried if no one got what I was trying to do. But as soon as you see that, you’re like, okay, people are into it. This girl on TikTok asked where I got my bundles from – she hunted down my distributor, and posted about it. It was crazy.

RITG: Do you feel like you’ve got collaborative relationships with the musicians you work with?

MB: I think when you start working with a person, they quickly begin to trust you. They trust you, because so many people are reacting to how they look. And once you build that confidence in someone, it becomes collaborative. You put something forward and they’re usually very intuitive.

RITG: How did you first come to work with Charli?

MB: The opportunity came up quite randomly. I had two options, I had something else in New York, and then another editorial came through to work with her. I’m sorry to say this, I didn’t really know much about Charli at that time. It took a little convincing from a friend of mine, and I decided to do it. Then I found out she was releasing an album. We started talking from there and working together more often.

RITG: I think now is it good time to talk about David La Chapelle?

MB: David has this massive studio outside of West Hollywood way. He has it set up with multiple sets throughout the building, and he has a cast of method actors that work with him. They’re all very into the vision. They keep the energy up. I was pretty starstruck to be able to work on this project, because it’s like ‘s***’, He’s like, shot Michael Jackson and Madonna Donna. Now, we get to recreate an image with him.' He’s a crazy genius.

RITG: How long were you shooting with him?

MB: A full day. Every set was already set up. His team were awesome.

RITG: So you had Charli in the tank, and then you reset that?

MB: That was the last shot, thank god!

RITG: Does it work with Charli, where she’s like: “I’m doing this, Matt, you’re doing this with me”?

MB: I don’t do everything. There are some things that I will tap out of. There’s always the thought of what kind of hairstylist or artist do you want to be? Do you want to work in the realm of celebrity and do that all the time? Or do you kind of want to be on the periphery of that, but also do fashion and stay current and do projects that mean something to you. Because if you go too far in that world, you will never get out of it. And some people won’t work with you because you’re too much on the inside. I love the relationship with Charli obviously, we’re friends, but she understands that also. It’s about creating art, integrity, respect for each other.

RITG: Since we’re on Charli, let’s talk about the Guess video.

MB: This also was a crazy shoot, because we filmed all of this in one day. I think we did La Chappelle the day before, and then we shot this. This was also edited on-site as we were filming. It was released two days later. Straight after that, we went to New York to shoot the book project I was showing you earlier.

Matt Benns’ Three Iconic Looks

I kind of wanted to show different ways of playing with hair. One look, we did used hair pieces that were sealed with gelatin, which is what’s how you get this clear hardness in the hair. We did this for the Met Gala during a time when the weather is very humid, so you kind of have to think about how it’s going to last. It’s anime-inspired.

With wigs, you can kind of create what you want. You can create these characters quite instantly. I wanted to show different ways of changing or enhancing hair, basically by adding wefts and length textures. It’s like a whole bunch of different types of textures, playing with a wig, playing with things that are not usually thought of, like gelatin, to manipulate and create shapes.

Charli’s hair is bundles and bundles of hair pieces. When she performs she shakes her hair like crazy, so you have to make sure that everything sticks around and doesn’t fall out.